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  1. #681
    Quote Originally Posted by HadesSaint View Post
    One question:

    On 5.3 Haste > Mastery
    On 5.4 Mastery >= Haste si true on high item level?

    I'm 552 and use 29% haste for 52% Mastery. This situation is Good for max dps?
    One answer: Sim yourself.
    Looking for arbitary "caps" or "breakpoints" is useless. Sim yourself.
    The biggest mistake one can make, is not admitting when you're wrong.

    Grimshac - Neptulon, 4th best guild on Alliance side, Resto Shaman !

  2. #682
    Quote Originally Posted by Shauni View Post
    Hello there, I'm not used to post in this forum (but an avid warlock lurker) so I've figured this is the best place to ask the question I have.

    I'm coming here to help my girlfriend, ele shaman (armory, don't mind the bad gems) but who can't speak english on her own.
    We've done some research and (a lot of) theorycraft about her character, so I come here to share the results. Not that I want some hand-holding, but I just want to be SURE my conclusion are correct.

    So, I've simmed her character through different scenarios, which I explain now :

    5 min fight, talent UF/EoE, Skill good, One then three enemies, light movement, version 541-1 here are my results

    Reforge | Mono target | multitarget
    Full Haste | 216539 dps | 332054 dps
    Full mastery | 214715 dps | 328935 dps
    10500 Haste&mastery | 216469 dps | 336493 dps

    So, my conclusion :
    - On monotarget, whatever optimisation you choose make NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE. Variance here are simulation noise.
    - On multitarget, keeping haste and mastery close gives the best result, but in an insignificant way. Here again no significant difference.

    With plot reforge :
    [pic was here]
    Here again, even if difference are noticable, the spikes are difficult to understand. Can one really be so precise with reforge ?

    What I ask of you : did I missed something ? Telling her to stay in a haste build seems the optimal think to do, but I'm willing to ask your confirmation, because I am well aware that simcraft gives only numbers. They are honest, but they are not telling everything.

    Edit : still toying with the reforge plot.
    Starting from my haste=mastery build, I got 336508 dps and this
    [pic was here]
    So, naively, I thought : "Well, if I reforge 1k haste into 1k Mastery, I should gain approximatively 3k DPS...

    But, after the reforge, I got
    [pic was here]
    And...332709 dps. Yeah, I lost 3K dps, I really don't get it...
    As can be seen in Tickletotem Post @ Totemspot (http://www.totemspot.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7082), haste is a little bit better than mastery. Your calculations look fine, I got the similar results for my shaman.

    Personally I reforged and regemed to haste, due to the simcraft results, but I like the "play feeling" of the "mastery"-build better, even though with the "haste"-build I gain 10-20k DPS

    If she wants to min/max the shaman and simcrafts suggests a "haste"-Build, then go for it on, and if the "haste"-build doesn't feel "right" try the mastery build
    Last edited by Hirork; 2013-11-21 at 10:06 AM. Reason: grammar... stupid grammar

  3. #683
    High Overlord Skurkitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hirork View Post
    As can be seen in Tickletotem Post @ Totemspot (http://www.totemspot.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7082), haste is a little bit better than mastery. Your calculations look fine, I got the similar results for my shaman.

    Personally I reforged and regemed to haste, due to the simcraft results, but I like the "play feeling" of the "mastery"-build better, even though with the "haste"-build I gain 10-20k DPS

    If she wants to min/max the shaman and simcrafts suggests a "haste"-Build, then go for it on, and if the "haste"-build doesn't feel "right" try the mastery build
    Haste VS Mastery builds are really a closed case at this point in the game. They are so dead even that Mastery turns to greater benefit simply due to the addition of cleave, hence why you see every Ele rocking Mastery gems even to the point of full BiS. Even at 570 ilvl when I ran sims last night I would only gain a small amount of around 3-5k DPS single target from dropping about 3k Mastery for Haste. Even then if I did that simcraft would possibly flip it on me next sim and say the reversal of what I just did is of more benefit.

    As you gear up Haste will (by itself) get to a safe point where you don't really need much more. The average seeming to be between 33 and 35%. Granted this is pushing BiS gear, but the days of pushing high points of 44%+ Haste in ToT are very much over. At lower ilvls the values are obviously going to be a tad skewed and tweaking will be required to maximize output.

    In regards to Shauni and his GF. Ran a sim and reforge plot for her character. She is fine right where she is at currently, this is because she is around that baseline 33-35% Haste that Ele Shamans are baselining at higher ilvls. CURRENTLY her only gain would be at around 2000 more Haste for a nice 1-2k DPS increase (not worth it don't even consider it). Once she gears up more and gains more Haste from her gear, the value of gemming Haste will decrease and she'll want to swap over to Mastery for better output.

  4. #684
    Quote Originally Posted by Skurkitty View Post
    snip
    Analysis with backup and experience, my favorite kind !
    Thanks for your time and for confirming what I thougt. If I could give you karma, I would
    "Well...I think you don't get the concept of World First. It's not Method, it's NOT an obscure asian guild whose name can't be pronounced by the regular folks, it's blizzard !

    Yeah, cuz they had an internal test team, and they beat Garrosh. So by your standart, they are the true first."

  5. #685
    Very helpful guide! Ty!

  6. #686
    I was randomly on the shadow priest guide and found something really helpful. I wish the ele shaman guide had it. I'm stuck on my shaman and not sure what to shoot for.

    General logic of stat priorities at various gear levels (Shadow priest guide on MMO Champion forums):

    1. If you are below the 8085 haste breakpoint or not hit capped, you should not worry about relative crit / mastery imbalance, its very small and insignificant compared to hit/haste breakpoints

    2. If your item level is below say... ~510 you should probably just regard Crit and Mastery as being equal - and both being significantly worse than Int > Hit > Haste

    3. If you have the above but do not have 2pT15 (or 4pT15) you should consider crit better than haste once you are above 8085, but not in range of 10125 haste

    4. If you have 1 and 2 covered, and have 2pT15 (or 4pT15) you should consider mastery and crit to be a personal choice

    5. If you have 1, 2, and 4 covered, and have Lei Shen's 100% crit trinket, and are making use of it to apply long-lasting 100% crit chance DoTs, you should consider mastery to be a clear winner.

  7. #687
    So, uh... I just started Ele again because my guild didn't need a resto shaman. My gear is all from when I was resto so it all has spirit. That said, I can't for the life of me find any mail gear without spirit. Reforged down as much as possible with 0 spirit gems, my hit is at 17.5%. Are we just not able to get under hit cap?

  8. #688
    Quote Originally Posted by Drikkink View Post
    So, uh... I just started Ele again because my guild didn't need a resto shaman. My gear is all from when I was resto so it all has spirit. That said, I can't for the life of me find any mail gear without spirit. Reforged down as much as possible with 0 spirit gems, my hit is at 17.5%. Are we just not able to get under hit cap?
    OFC we are, try looking for a 2h staff without spirit sha of pride or siegecrafter blackfuse to be exact. Adding link to your armory would be helpfull. Patiently wait for tier tokens t16. 4/5 pieces are spiritless. With gear, consider going fully 5/5 with t16 great sockets and stats overall (even shoulders - tho worst stats possible, gives most haste on this slot with this ilvl i had seen so far). Spiritless items to consider - Thok ring, have great stats there - Siegecrafter blackfuse, spiritless boots (probably the only spiritless item that is droping from a boss in SOO. is not a tier slot item and definitly worth to look at,).
    If by chance you will get all of those, i guarantee that you will be most likely heavy spirit/hit rating starved
    Last edited by Ferror; 2013-12-03 at 08:47 PM.

  9. #689
    Staff from the Sha of Pride can be very useful to deal with excess hit, I use that myself.
    Last edited by madokbro; 2013-12-03 at 09:43 PM.

  10. #690
    Does anyone know if it is possible to make a Weakaura that can show how many enemy targets are in range of my current target to be hit by Chain Lightning?

    Also in a situation where you don't know how long a fight will be is it better to go with or without the Fire Elemental glyph?
    Last edited by Glurp; 2013-12-05 at 05:21 AM.

  11. #691
    I got my hit down to a reasonable level now (I can actually go UNDER hit cap if I wanted!) and got up to a 526 ilevel. I'm doing a few thousand under my simmed dummy DPS right now (I gotta manage my shocks better. I'm doing well not clipping FS, but I'm wasting fulm charges) and Simcraft is reaaaally liking haste for me right now. Quick in yellows, Reckless in reds and whatever haste/spirit is in blues and ALL reforging into haste after hit cap and my haste is about 1.5k rating lower than my mastery, but Simcraft just barely scales it equal to mastery now.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    Does anyone know if it is possible to make a Weakaura that can show how many enemy targets are in range of my current target to be hit by Chain Lightning?

    Also in a situation where you don't know how long a fight will be is it better to go with or without the Fire Elemental glyph?
    Unsure of the WA thing, but I'm under the impression that Fire Ele glyph is only good on fights where you need on demand burst frequently. Immersius is a fight it's good for and I'm sure there are others.

  12. #692
    I have a few questions about Ele, is it worth dropping a 567 piece so I can get the 2 piece bonus from an lfr piece (leggings specifically)

    Also, is Haste > Crit > Mastery better than Haste > Mastery > Crit for Challenge Modes, due to the Chain Lightning being able to crit on each jump, and the prevalence of that ability in Challenge Modes?

  13. #693
    Quote Originally Posted by Fallenstar View Post
    I was randomly on the shadow priest guide and found something really helpful. I wish the ele shaman guide had it. I'm stuck on my shaman and not sure what to shoot for.

    General logic of stat priorities at various gear levels (Shadow priest guide on MMO Champion forums):

    1. If you are below the 8085 haste breakpoint or not hit capped, you should not worry about relative crit / mastery imbalance, its very small and insignificant compared to hit/haste breakpoints

    2. If your item level is below say... ~510 you should probably just regard Crit and Mastery as being equal - and both being significantly worse than Int > Hit > Haste

    3. If you have the above but do not have 2pT15 (or 4pT15) you should consider crit better than haste once you are above 8085, but not in range of 10125 haste

    4. If you have 1 and 2 covered, and have 2pT15 (or 4pT15) you should consider mastery and crit to be a personal choice

    5. If you have 1, 2, and 4 covered, and have Lei Shen's 100% crit trinket, and are making use of it to apply long-lasting 100% crit chance DoTs, you should consider mastery to be a clear winner.
    Comparing shadow priests to elemental shamans is like comparing apples and oranges. Shadow priests are much more dependent on their DoTs for damage. We aren't (hardcasts all the way!).

    Quote Originally Posted by Drikkink View Post
    So, uh... I just started Ele again because my guild didn't need a resto shaman. My gear is all from when I was resto so it all has spirit. That said, I can't for the life of me find any mail gear without spirit. Reforged down as much as possible with 0 spirit gems, my hit is at 17.5%. Are we just not able to get under hit cap?
    Spirit is, unfortunately, on almost every piece of caster mail, and most of the ones you'll find without it are just part of the tier. Once you start switching gear over to pieces that lack spirit, it is possible to drop under the hit cap, so just be mindful of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valex View Post
    I have a few questions about Ele, is it worth dropping a 567 piece so I can get the 2 piece bonus from an lfr piece (leggings specifically)

    Also, is Haste > Crit > Mastery better than Haste > Mastery > Crit for Challenge Modes, due to the Chain Lightning being able to crit on each jump, and the prevalence of that ability in Challenge Modes?
    I'd have to say no, in regards to the gear question. 567 -> 528 is a pretty harsh drop, even if it is for a set bonus. If it were a flex or normal piece, that'd be a different story.

    I can't really answer the CM question with any confidence, though. Probably haste > mastery > crit, if I had to guess. It's just what we scale best with.

  14. #694
    questions about the healer amp trinket:
    1. It stacks with the DPS amp trinket, right? Additive or multiplicative?
    2. Do HST, HTT, Ancestral Guidance or the Flame Shock glyph proc it?

  15. #695
    Quote Originally Posted by Drikkink View Post
    questions about the healer amp trinket:
    1. It stacks with the DPS amp trinket, right? Additive or multiplicative?
    It likely does stack, but I don't know how, nor do I know why you would even want to. If you are a DPS, you shouldn't be taking this trinket over a healer (unless they all have it or don't need it). Double amp isn't even close to BiS either.

    If you are a healer, why are you using the DPS amp trinket, and who are the poor DPS casters you took it from so I can go comfort them?
    Quote Originally Posted by Drikkink View Post
    2. Do HST, HTT, Ancestral Guidance or the Flame Shock glyph proc it?
    Intellect proc only goes off for people actually specced as healers. If you're a DPS using the healer amp, the only thing you're getting out of it is the amp. No intellect proc.

  16. #696
    Quote Originally Posted by Sock View Post
    It likely does stack, but I don't know how, nor do I know why you would even want to. If you are a DPS, you shouldn't be taking this trinket over a healer (unless they all have it or don't need it). Double amp isn't even close to BiS either.

    If you are a healer, why are you using the DPS amp trinket, and who are the poor DPS casters you took it from so I can go comfort them?

    Intellect proc only goes off for people actually specced as healers. If you're a DPS using the healer amp, the only thing you're getting out of it is the amp. No intellect proc.
    The amp trinket is better than the cleave for sure. Might be better than the multistrike as well. Doubt it's better than garrosh's. but it might be.

  17. #697
    Quote Originally Posted by Drikkink View Post
    The amp trinket is better than the cleave for sure. Might be better than the multistrike as well. Doubt it's better than garrosh's. but it might be.
    BiS trinkets are Purified Bindings of Immerseus and Toxic Totem (DPS amp and multistrike), which have been known since 5.4 dropped. You should be passing on Black Blood to other DPS casters.

  18. #698
    Quote Originally Posted by Drikkink View Post
    The amp trinket is better than the cleave for sure. Might be better than the multistrike as well. Doubt it's better than garrosh's. but it might be.
    Like the dude above me already pointed out - check your facts.

    Single Target:
    Purified Bindings of Immerseus (all versions) > Kardris >= Black Blood > Prismatic Prison > Frenzied Crystal

    Multiple Targets:
    Frenzied Crystal (normal - HWF) > Purified Bindings of Immerseus (normal - HWF) >=Frenzied Crystal (Flex/LFR) > Kardris >= Black Blood >= Purified Bindings of Immerseus (Flex/LFR) > Prismatic Prison

    http://www.totemspot.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7082
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  19. #699
    It's worth noting that for UcanDoSht's listings for multiple target, the order does not hold for 2 targets:

    2 Targets: Kardris > Frenzied Crystal > Black Blood
    3 or more Targets: Frenzied Crystal > Kardris > Black Blood

  20. #700
    Does ele still do respectable DPS without legendary gem or cape?
    Quote Originally Posted by Validity View Post
    If rogues become shit, all they can become is a different type of shit.

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