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  1. #881
    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    tl;dr You have a lower proc rate with Chain Lightning on 2 targets than you do with Lightning Bolt on 1. Proc rate is the same on 3 targets, and you should use CL on 3 targets, but not on Klaxxi.
    reason why people say it does generate higher single target dmg is because of earth shock seeing with cl u gain stacks much quicker.

  2. #882
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormrayder View Post
    reason why people say it does generate higher single target dmg is because of earth shock seeing with cl u gain stacks much quicker.
    What he said, though, is that both mastery and shield charges are genereated at 1/3 the rate from CL than they are from lightningbolt - so hitting 3 targets = same chance to proc an extra CL/a fulmination proc as 1x lightningbolt. I'm seeing something else ingame, but humans are faulty by design, so if anyone knows how to accurately test it / has the coefficients etc somehwere, that'd be sick .

  3. #883
    casting cl is quicker though, so if they are both equal chance of fulm procs and say in my personal case cl cast = 1sec lb cast = 1.4 sec its more efficient to cast cl to gain fulm stacks

  4. #884
    The issue comes in with that Stormrayder in that you are sacrificing damage for stacks. For every single stack that is wasted you are losing DPS. CL is much more RNG for this than LB is. You can jump from 1 stack too 7 in a single cast of CL, but by the time all the Mastery procs have finished you are already casting the next CL, which will not get you any bonus at all, leaving you with just a flat DPS loss vs casting LB. The benefit only comes in if you are actually able to utilize every single one of those bonus stacks.


  5. #885
    hehe yeah i was totally aware of this issue although the cast times seem to scale the cl dmg up a tiny bit too and that coupled with the fulmination might make up for it. simple example i just hit a mob for the sake of comparison, 1 cl cast on 1 target for 120k, 1 lb cast did 160k. lb being 1.4 sec cast and cl being 1sec means in the time it takes me to hit 10 lbs i can hit 14 cls. 10x160 =1600 while 120X14= 1680 these numbers are the widest apart i have gotten just to illustrate the point. not saying its a ground breaking difference but there is a difference none the less coupled with decent shock managment doesnt seem too bad.
    ive read conversations like this plenty of times over the years just like the multi dot shamans discussions too are long debated, still though this cl convo reminds me of the msv dogs fight, one of the easier ways to rank on that fight was to cl the 2 dogs and earthshock while keeping ur normal rotation, to the point you would even take tulleric currents cuz u would go oom doing it, yet is still yielded higher dps.
    Last edited by Stormrayder; 2014-06-16 at 04:11 AM.

  6. #886
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormrayder View Post
    hehe yeah i was totally aware of this issue although the cast times seem to scale the cl dmg up a tiny bit too and that coupled with the fulmination might make up for it. simple example i just hit a mob for the sake of comparison, 1 cl cast on 1 target for 120k, 1 lb cast did 160k. lb being 1.4 sec cast and cl being 1sec means in the time it takes me to hit 10 lbs i can hit 14 cls. 10x160 =1600 while 120X14= 1680 these numbers are the widest apart i have gotten just to illustrate the point. not saying its a ground breaking difference but there is a difference none the less coupled with decent shock managment doesnt seem too bad.
    ive read conversations like this plenty of times over the years just like the multi dot shamans discussions too are long debated, still though this cl convo reminds me of the msv dogs fight, one of the easier ways to rank on that fight was to cl the 2 dogs and earthshock while keeping ur normal rotation, to the point you would even take tulleric currents cuz u would go oom doing it, yet is still yielded higher dps.
    You need to cleave to rank on Klaxxi too. However, none of the cleave damage means anything. If your guild is passed progression on Klaxxi then feel free to abuse CL on the fight, but for single target it might not be the best choice.


  7. #887
    Brewmaster Anzen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Having recently picked up a ele shaman alt, this actually intrigues me a bit. My CL is at 1.07 cast, 42315 dmg (or 39546 dmg for 1 second). My Lightningbolt is at 1.43 sec, 73180 dmg (or 51174 dmg for 1 sec). So about 22-23% stronger.
    Obviously, CL on 3 targets generate lightning shield charges at tripple the rate. So I take it from what you say, that tripple-rate generation is not worth the 23% damage difference in using CL over Lightning bolt?
    (this is with the glyph, so I guess the actual difference would be about 20% without it).
    There is more behind this than just this though (and I'll use your numbers for this since I'm too lazy to get my own!).

    1. Meta Gem: The legendary meta gem has incredibly high up-time for Elemental (talking ~50%!). Lightning Bolt would gain far more benefit from this than Chain Lightning would. Whist CL would quickly be GCD capped, Lightning Bolt would go down to a ~1.1s cast time. This would make the DPS of CL 42,315 and the DPS of LB 66,527 - about a 37% damage difference. Of course because this is only the case 50% of the time, we can meet half way and assume it's a 30% DPS loss from what we know already.

    2. Unleash Elements: The most superior single target talent in our level 90 tier is hands-down Unleash Elements. Sadly this spell is limited to only buffing Lava Burst and Lightning Bolt damage; by using Chain Lightning instead of Lightning Bolt, we lose the 30% damage buff from UE .

    3. Mastery: Realistically, you'll only be cleaving two targets at any time (Ka'roz sprinting around the room most of the fight/bosses needing to be tanked apart) and as I have detailed below, this would mean we have 1/3rd less chance to proc our mastery than spamming Lightning Bolt; an obvious DPS loss.

    4. Earth Shock: Along with many people, I have been lured into this false pretense that Earth Shock is stronger than it really is. The whole "building up stacks from your spells to deliver a powerful single blow" idea makes it seem like Earth Shock should hit really hard. In reality, you'll find it does a fraction more than Lightning Bolt.

    There are many more reasons I'm sure (such as over-capping LS stacks and breaking parasite CC), these were just off the top of my head, although I think it's pretty clear already it's a bad idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    Chain Lightning generates charges at 1/3 the rate per target that Lightning Bolt does.
    I think you're confusing how our Mastery works with Fulmination. Mastery procs for Chain Lightning are calculated at (X/3)*Y; where X is our Mastery chance and Y is the targets chain Lightning will hit.

  8. #888
    Unleashed Fury is 30% Lightning Bolt damage.

  9. #889
    Brewmaster Anzen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chairmanmao View Post
    Unleashed Fury is 30% Lightning Bolt damage.
    Thanks, edited the typo.

  10. #890
    Quote Originally Posted by Anzen View Post
    I think you're confusing how our Mastery works with Fulmination. Mastery procs for Chain Lightning are calculated at (X/3)*Y; where X is our Mastery chance and Y is the targets chain Lightning will hit.
    Yeah, I was mistaken. Every jump of Chain Lightning has a 60% chance to proc Rolling Thunder (and thus gain a stack), however my secondary point still stands. Unless you are able to utilise every single one of those extra stacks (which you wont be able too if you only cast CL and never LB) then you are going to end up doing less damage on the Primary Target than you would by just spamming LB, because once you are at max stacks, you are not gaining anything but losing both Mastery procs on that target and base damage between the two spells.

    It might be worth weaving in a chain lighting into the rotation if ES was about to come back up and you had terrible luck with LB so had like 3 or less stacks, but if you are already at 5+ stacks, most of the stacks you get from a CL cast will go to waste. In any other situation, you would still be better off spamming LB, because that cleave damage doesn't mean anything.


  11. #891
    The shaman guides on MMO-champion are like the worst ones on the whole internet. When will we get moderators who actually play this class competevily, who can actually answer serious questions and write useful guides and also keeping them up to date. As its now, class forum mods are useless deco and/or too casual for the targeted audience.
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  12. #892
    Brewmaster Anzen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    The shaman guides on MMO-champion are like the worst ones on the whole internet. When will we get moderators who actually play this class competevily, who can actually answer serious questions and write useful guides and also keeping them up to date. As its now, class forum mods are useless deco and/or too casual for the targeted audience.
    I don't know, being able to talk through things with fellow Shaman players in this thread I think is pretty strong! #nominatemyselfforshamanmod.

    Can't say I've ever read the guide though, will go have a look!

  13. #893
    Quote Originally Posted by Anzen View Post
    I don't know, being able to talk through things with fellow Shaman players in this thread I think is pretty strong! #nominatemyselfforshamanmod.

    Can't say I've ever read the guide though, will go have a look!
    Just chosed to post in this thread, but I mean all specs guides here and also the quality of mod posts is below acceptable. Heroic/mythic raiding should be a requirement of being a class mod, everything else is useless and below an acceptable standard.
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  14. #894
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    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    Just chosed to post in this thread, but I mean all specs guides here and also the quality of mod posts is below acceptable. Heroic/mythic raiding should be a requirement of being a class mod, everything else is useless and below an acceptable standard.
    After reading, they do seem pretty outdated. I think the gearing section said to gem pure intellect still.

    Updates pleaseee

  15. #895
    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    Just chosed to post in this thread, but I mean all specs guides here and also the quality of mod posts is below acceptable. Heroic/mythic raiding should be a requirement of being a class mod, everything else is useless and below an acceptable standard.
    I completely disagree. When I was a mod, I was doing server-first level raiding, yet that didn't benefit my ability to theorycraft really at all. Being good at theorycrafting and knowing how to play the class does not translate to also needing to commit so heavily to the game. Its useful for giving advice on encounters to have actually done them, but the guides posted in this forum, and most of the class forums, don't give a breakdown boss by boss of what to do as your class, they simply give a general guideline of the best practices.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anzen View Post
    After reading, they do seem pretty outdated. I think the gearing section said to gem pure intellect still.

    Updates pleaseee
    Gemming Intellect isn't actually 'wrong'. You actually need a fairly high ilevel (540+) before you consistently can say that Intellect is not the best option, and even then you need to Sim it to work out whether Haste or Mastery is better (though again, basic guidelines can be used to say Mastery is better if you have meta gem). The guide clearly mentions this, and the "Intellect > Hit/Spirit to 15% cap > Haste >= Mastery > Crit" part is actually technically correct, Intellect IS better than everything else, on a 1 to 1 basis, its just that you get twice as much of every other stat than you do of Intellect from gems, which again the guide clearly states.


  16. #896
    Does SimC currently undervaluate Heroic Kardris' toxic totem?
    I just replaced my normal mode garrosh trinket 2/4 for heroic kardris' 4/4 and according to SimC it's only a 10k dps upgrade on patchwerk. Can this be correct or is SimC not correctly simulating the dark shaman trinket?

  17. #897
    Quote Originally Posted by tidus93 View Post
    Does SimC currently undervaluate Heroic Kardris' toxic totem?
    I just replaced my normal mode garrosh trinket 2/4 for heroic kardris' 4/4 and according to SimC it's only a 10k dps upgrade on patchwerk. Can this be correct or is SimC not correctly simulating the dark shaman trinket?
    I'm fairly sure SC properly values Multistrike, as plenty of people have done trinket tier lists using DPS values gathered from Simcraft. Are you sure that is the only thing that changed? Maybe link your armory so others can verify?


  18. #898
    Quote Originally Posted by tidus93 View Post
    Does SimC currently undervaluate Heroic Kardris' toxic totem?
    I just replaced my normal mode garrosh trinket 2/4 for heroic kardris' 4/4 and according to SimC it's only a 10k dps upgrade on patchwerk. Can this be correct or is SimC not correctly simulating the dark shaman trinket?
    Let's look at the following chart as a basis for our analysis:

    http://www.totemspot.com/simc/T16/Tr...ste-EchoUF.jpg

    Though this chart is a little bit old, the information in it should not have changed dramatically.

    Since the chart does not reflect the possibility to upgrade items, let's try to interpret it as best as possible.

    So your former "black blood normal (2/4)" may be regarded as being the same as "black blood warforged" in the chart and your newly obtained "kardis toxic totem heroic (4/4)" could be approximated with "kardis toxic totem heroic warforged" in the chart, but would probably do a few k more dps.

    So, the chart tells us that "black blood warforged" and "kardis toxic totem heroic warforged" are roughly 6k dps apart from each other.

    Taking the higher item level of your actual kardis due to upgrading into account, the difference of 10k dps seems to be quite reasonable to me.

    Also, I consider 10k dps to be a lot, dunno why you expected much more. It's not that you upgraded from a blue trinket to a heroic warforged one.

  19. #899
    Awesome guide thank you

  20. #900
    Hey guys, I just recently got the Immerseus trinket and as a result, I believe my gemming priorities have changed. Some guides tell me to go for int+mastery, some say I should also use pure yellow, some say to go for a balance. Robot tells me to do a mix, mostly int+mast with some yellow mastery and haste gems? Am I right to be going down this route? Also I know about the hit rating. I can't get it any lower as a draenei.

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Razira/simple

    Thanks.
    Last edited by RaZDaZ; 2014-07-03 at 02:19 PM.

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