German consumer protection dudes sues Valve

[Wilian]

I must confess, I haven't actually read Steam TOS, but still, I'm pretty sure the previous one included something along the lines that you "agree that Valve can make cahnges and update TOS, and if you do not accept the new version, you automatically get your previous Steam rights revoked".

I mean EVERY TOS does that. Why are people suddenly so surprised about that?

Simple really you either accept with their terms or you dont. it is a service they provide to you. you follow their rules and be happy or you say no and become SOL. I really dont see why people cant undderstand that as a company they need to keep themselves covered on all bases. They give you a simple choice, accept their terms or gtfo.

Just because Valve writes it so doesn't make it so and it has to abide by both regional laws AND regulations. Also if you have read the ToS then you'd also know it has this little bit about if local laws are saying different than what the ToS is, then the stuff will be handled on the basis of the laws case by case, not the ToS.

For example, I live in Finland and we have return rights for 14 days on unsealed online digital/physical products. Steam ToS says, no such things will ever happen but I pursued it and brought up the legistlation and got refund for Crysis Warhead based on Finnish law.

And if the court will find that Valve's practices of denying all the content you have bought through it before the change of ToS is not in line with what should be considered fair treatment of the customer then Valve will be forced to accomodate to that or stop selling in the said country.

And it would be good if the court judged it from customer perspective, because right now Valve has pretty much unlimited rights to the property of the players (And yes, I keep calling it property of the players as long as Steam uses following words: "Buy, Sell, Gift" instead of Rent, Loan or any other words on that category)

Also should be noted that this same case is pushing on the right to resell digital game as ruled by the Supreme Court of EU previously, further reinforcing the customer's right to the product he/she has bought.

[SevenSages]

Simple really you either accept with their terms or you dont. it is a service they provide to you. you follow their rules and be happy or you say no and become SOL. I really dont see why people cant undderstand that as a company they need to keep themselves covered on all bases. They give you a simple choice, accept their terms or gtfo.

[Faldric]

I must confess, I haven't actually read Steam TOS, but still, I'm pretty sure the previous one included something along the lines that you "agree that Valve can make cahnges and update TOS, and if you do not accept the new version, you automatically get your previous Steam rights revoked".

I mean EVERY TOS does that. Why are people suddenly so surprised about that?

Dont know how it is in other countries but in Austria, one can not reserve itself the right to change the contract at a later point, even if the other agrees. The future change would have to be defined in the original contract. But even if as Vespian already said Steam is just the platform. It has no right to deny you access to your properties.

---------- Post added 2012-09-21 at 12:01 PM ----------

Simple really you either accept with their terms or you dont. it is a service they provide to you. you follow their rules and be happy or you say no and become SOL. I really dont see why people cant undderstand that as a company they need to keep themselves covered on all bases. They give you a simple choice, accept their terms or gtfo.

If they would provide me with the option to get all my games out of Steam when I dont agree with the new TOS, I would have no problem with that. But as it is now I either eat up their new TOS or lose all my games.

[Deleted]

i guess unless it states somewhere in their ToS/EULA that you do not own the games or that they can restrict access at any time for any reason, then Germany may have a case. as i dont think that valve owns the games, you own them. i may be wrong. it all seems a bit silly to me though.

[Wilian]

i guess unless it states somewhere in their ToS/EULA that you do not own the games or that they can restrict access at any time for any reason, then Germany may have a case. as i dont think that valve owns the games, you own them. i may be wrong. it all seems a bit silly to me though.

It doesn't really matter what ToS or EULA says if the national laws in the nations Steam works in doesn't apply.

Good example is that Finnish people have 14 days refund policy on unsealed online products, be it digital or physical while Steam disagrees. (I got refund based on that law) Another is that once you've made agreement, you can't just change it at your whim, regardless of what ToS says. It's illegal in Finland and that is being tried in court in Germany right now.

[Deleted]

It's probably just a case about principles and also if you get courts to support it now, similar cases in the future will be probably ruled like that aswell. And I also believe it is a legitimate case, just because steam is the platform that sold you the games in the past and they can't just change the contract of something you bought earlier.

[Powerogue]

It does seem a bit insane that they can change their terms of use, and if you disagree, all the games that you bought while assuming the OLD terms of use are not yours any longer.

Say they changed their terms of use to require you to sacrifice one of your children to them, you'd be powerless to either lose your games or your children.

I'd be fine with the "you can no longer buy new games" option, that seems a reasonable compromise.

[Deleted]

This is a tiny bit of the Subscriber Agreement which everyone accepts every single time they purchase something through steam..

Steam is an online service ("Steam") offered by Valve.

You become a subscriber of Steam ("Subscriber") by installing the Steam client software and completing the Steam registration. This Agreement takes effect as soon as you indicate your acceptance of these terms.

As a Subscriber you may obtain access to certain services, software and content available to Subscribers. The Steam client software and any other software, content, and updates you download or access via Steam, including but not limited to Valve or third-party video games and in-game content, and any virtual items you trade in the Steam Trading Marketplace, are referred to in this Agreement as “Software”; the rights to access and/or use any services, software and/or content accessible through Steam are referred to in this Agreement as "Subscriptions."


if you read more it pretty much states that youre a subscriber and valve owns everything.. this isnt anything new. I disagree with people simply saying if i buy something i own it. I have no idea but are the rights to/for physical items the exact same as digital ones?

[Wilian]

This is a tiny bit of the Subscriber Agreement which everyone accepts every single time they purchase something through steam..

if you read more it pretty much states that youre a subscriber and valve owns everything.. this isnt anything new. I disagree with people simply saying if i buy something i own it. I have no idea but are the rights to/for physical items the exact same as digital ones?

And there are two tiny bits in the agreement which Steam has to deal with when working in EU and if EU deems it's unlawful / unfair practice to deny access to the bought objects they must comply.

7. DISCLAIMERS; LIMITATION OF LIABILITY; NO GUARANTEES

FOR EU CUSTOMERS, THIS SECTION 7 DOES NOT REDUCE YOUR MANDATORY CONSUMERS' RIGHTS UNDER THE LAWS OF YOUR LOCAL JURISDICTION.


11. APPLICABLE LAW/JURISDICTION

You agree that this Agreement shall be deemed to have been made and executed in the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg and that it is subject to the laws of Luxembourg, excluding the law of conflicts and the Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods (CISG). However, where the laws of Luxembourg provide a lower degree of consumer protection than the laws of your country of residence, the consumer protection laws of your country shall prevail. In any dispute arising under this Agreement, the prevailing party will be entitled to attorneys' fees and expenses.

There are many things that are illegal in the Steam ToS in my country, including the whole ToS. For example we have 14 days right of return/refund law, even for digital product as long as the products are unsealed (uninstalled for the less aware) and more importantly, laws in our country dictate that an agreement cannot be changed in the fly and that if there are to be any changed the changes and the time they come to effect has to be announced in the original agreement. Due to finnish laws Steam ToS is an illegal agreement and worth wiping your ass with.

[oplawlz]

Here's hoping the German courts uphold this little piece of consumer protection. It's disgusting how so many governments have rolled over for corporations at the expense of consumers. The very notion that one does not own software after purchase, but instead some imaginary license to use that software is ridiculous.

[Deleted]

Here's hoping the German courts uphold this little piece of consumer protection. It's disgusting how so many governments have rolled over for corporations at the expense of consumers. The very notion that one does not own software after purchase, but instead some imaginary license to use that software is ridiculous.

You'll love it when all games move to cloud services and availeable for rent only.

[Coombs]

This is a tiny bit of the Subscriber Agreement which everyone accepts every single time they purchase something through steam..

Steam is an online service ("Steam") offered by Valve.

You become a subscriber of Steam ("Subscriber") by installing the Steam client software and completing the Steam registration. This Agreement takes effect as soon as you indicate your acceptance of these terms.

As a Subscriber you may obtain access to certain services, software and content available to Subscribers. The Steam client software and any other software, content, and updates you download or access via Steam, including but not limited to Valve or third-party video games and in-game content, and any virtual items you trade in the Steam Trading Marketplace, are referred to in this Agreement as “Software”; the rights to access and/or use any services, software and/or content accessible through Steam are referred to in this Agreement as "Subscriptions."


if you read more it pretty much states that youre a subscriber and valve owns everything.. this isnt anything new. I disagree with people simply saying if i buy something i own it. I have no idea but are the rights to/for physical items the exact same as digital ones?

I guess if I'm a subscriber I should just pay a small monthly fee and download and play any fucking game I want to at anytime, not pay full fucking price for a title and simply just use steam so I don't have to wait in a line at midnight for a title. Fuck Steam.

---------- Post added 2012-09-22 at 06:03 AM ----------

You'll love it when all games move to cloud services and availeable for rent only.

That's the day I quit gamming, and I pray millions follow me and finally take a stand.

[Ferocity]

It does seem a bit insane that they can change their terms of use, and if you disagree, all the games that you bought while assuming the OLD terms of use are not yours any longer.

That's why signing ToU/EULA in all these cases bring absolute zero legal consequences and are empty letters in any court.

Hopefully case with Valve will become good enough precedent, with Blizzard and EA becoming next in line. Users became completely brainwashed by those companies, and really think they buy games, while in fact they buy only "access" and "licenses". Sorry it is technically a fraud - you don't go to shop to buy license for coffee, you don't go to shop to buy "license" for book, you don't go to shop to buy "access" to use something in the shop while it is working.

While it will take time, and situation won't really improve till many months later, but we are slowly going there - and on place of same Blizzard, EA and other "license"-freaks, I would start to actually sell games before facing heavy problems with law.