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  1. #1

    How do you deal with raiders that could be good

    In the past, I have always "coached" people. I like to think that I can spot a raider that can be good if given the proper guidance. Raiders that, say, are great at being raid aware, but their DPS just isn't up to par... simply because they aren't tracking self-buffs properly or their rotation is slightly out of whack.I prefer coaching. For example, I have been playing a rogue since vanilla. My brother started playing at the beginning of cata. He picked up pretty quickly on the basics of a rogue, and is pretty decent at awareness, but MAN did his DPS suck, even after the recent patch. He's been a gamer as long as I have, and I know he's not incompetent.

    I pulled him aside, with my rogue, and (I moved into an extra room at his house recently), said "watch what I do." I explained why Assassination needs rupture, why you shouldn't clip envenoms, why using something like weak auras is good to track them and why that's important. Then we sat down and beat on a dummy together and compared recounts. Spent about an hour doing this. Last night in a DS run, on ultra, his DPS went up by 10k.

    Both in game and when I am in a leadership position at work, I'm a firm believer in trying to get the person to improve before getting rid of them. For in game, saying "go read EJ or MMO-C" can have some results, but doing things like pulling them aside won't always have good results. Pulling people aside and talking it through with them seems to give me some decent results. It's actually quite nice when I watch someone go from middle of the pack to always topping charts just because of something I talked to them about.

    So, when you have a raider that you know could be good, what do you do? How do you handle it?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Jekerdud View Post
    In the past, I have always "coached" people. I like to think that I can spot a raider that can be good if given the proper guidance. Raiders that, say, are great at being raid aware, but their DPS just isn't up to par... simply because they aren't tracking self-buffs properly or their rotation is slightly out of whack.I prefer coaching. For example, I have been playing a rogue since vanilla. My brother started playing at the beginning of cata. He picked up pretty quickly on the basics of a rogue, and is pretty decent at awareness, but MAN did his DPS suck, even after the recent patch. He's been a gamer as long as I have, and I know he's not incompetent.

    I pulled him aside, with my rogue, and (I moved into an extra room at his house recently), said "watch what I do." I explained why Assassination needs rupture, why you shouldn't clip envenoms, why using something like weak auras is good to track them and why that's important. Then we sat down and beat on a dummy together and compared recounts. Spent about an hour doing this. Last night in a DS run, on ultra, his DPS went up by 10k.

    Both in game and when I am in a leadership position at work, I'm a firm believer in trying to get the person to improve before getting rid of them. For in game, saying "go read EJ or MMO-C" can have some results, but doing things like pulling them aside won't always have good results. Pulling people aside and talking it through with them seems to give me some decent results. It's actually quite nice when I watch someone go from middle of the pack to always topping charts just because of something I talked to them about.

    So, when you have a raider that you know could be good, what do you do? How do you handle it?
    I try to give some friendly advice but more often than not they spit in my face and tell me I'm a pretentious prick.
    The dragons' flame sealed my fate. The world of the living can no longer comfort me.

  3. #3
    It's not always the content of what you say, but the way you put it across to someone. But OT, I'd tell them straight out I expect better from them.
    Pick-Up Group (PUG): Impromptu groups typically convened for the purpose of tackling the game's simpler content.
    While billed as the cornerstone of a game built on extensive social interaction, they are in fact the graveyard of one's faith in humanity.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Blindfaith View Post
    It's not always the content of what you say, but the way you put it across to someone.
    I can agree with that. If you sound like a dick about it, they'll take it the wrong way and shrug off the advice. Which is why I did the "watch what I do,"... it's a visual that helps. Since most people aren't in the same room, comparing recounts is about the next best thing I guess.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Blindfaith View Post
    It's not always the content of what you say, but the way you put it across to someone. But OT, I'd tell them straight out I expect better from them.
    Oh I do know that, hence the 'friendly' advice.

    But you'd be suprised how many people just don't want you to give them advice.

    You giving them advice is you telling them how to play 'their' game, which is a big no-no.
    The dragons' flame sealed my fate. The world of the living can no longer comfort me.

  6. #6
    Legendary! Evil Inside's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellkung View Post
    I try to give some friendly advice but more often than not they spit in my face and tell me I'm a pretentious prick.
    Yep, I've had this happen before.
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  7. #7
    I kick them out of the raid. If they could do better, but are not willing to invest the 10 minutes it takes nowadays to know your class they just waste my fellow raiders and my time.

  8. #8
    I'm normally going through logs of our raids and then discuss the differences. What went wrong? Why is there a difference in terms of dps / damage taken / healing done? It's possible to answer all of these questions, though you have to consider the specifics of the boss fight. How much damage / healing on which targets? What spells were used? What sources did the damage taken come from? Since I'm a math nerd, many people in my guild come to me for this questions and to help them comparing their logs with those of the same classes of the top guilds in the world, also if I have much less experience with / don't even really understand their class.
    Some really interesting discussions can come out of an analysis of logs, helping those who aren't that sure what exactly to do in specific situations, and also helping me understanding my own / other classes and the encounter better.
    I have to admit though that I only help guildies / friends with this, in random groups I stay silent and just do my thing, only giving tips to newer players if they explicitly ask for them. The reason is: I've made the experience that many players nowadays don't want the help of others and see it as offensive if you're trying to give some tips, i've been called a ***** often enough just for trying to help or explaining a boss mechanic.

  9. #9
    Field Marshal creepfest's Avatar
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    just do as you did, pull them aside and discuss or even show them. do so with tact though. no one likes a jerk

  10. #10
    If the person plays a spec I know(which is pretty much every DPS spec and then a few tank/healer specs), and they seem to want to learn, I'll gladly give them advice. In both of the raiding guilds I've been in, I've almost always been the one people asked when they needed an addon for something specific, or just to ask what the newest patch changed(because they're all lazy and reading is hard :P)
    A while back we got a random new guildie(one of the people who just got invited because they wanted the perks and to get us money via the perk). He got "stuck" at 81 or so, because he wanted to do old raids(TBC and WotLK). I gave him some advice about levelling, for example that he'd have an easier time getting into groups at 85. He got to 85, did a bunch of old raids, and then he wanted to do current raids.
    He did LFR with me a few times, I gave him some pointers about his DPS, and he improved a lot. His biggest wish the whole time was to get Destroyer's End and Gurthalak. So we did an alt run where we brought him, and he did surprisingly well.(Madness dropped 2x Gurthalak, so both him and my DK alt got one)
    He is a really nice guy, and learns quite quickly. I wouldn't say he's ready for heroic mode progression, but I think its likely he will be at some point in MoP.

  11. #11
    I used to give advice, now I dont. Too many pricks playing that call me an asshole for trying to save them from embarassing themselves.

    If they ask me personally, then I usually respond. Generally they wont ask anything and just flail around pulling everything in sight and I just kick them or vote to kick them because I don't want to deal with their bitching.

    It's always "don't tell me how to play with my 15 bucks a month" and frankly I've been sick of it since wrath of the lich king.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBmNL...ature=youtu.be (#1 SSB Gold run on Bleeding Hollow)
    "Your lights will go out. The darkness will envelop you. And you will fear the shadows that move within it."

  12. #12
    I've stopped caring about how other people play the game.
    If they ask i don't mind talking about it, but more than often i've experienced people going through the roof when you mention something about playstyle.

    Even if it's just to ask a question like, did you interrupt that or do this?, people get very defensive and clearly say they don't want any advice whatsoever.

    Personally i don't mind people giving advice, as long as it is in a constructive manner.

  13. #13
    Before giving anyone friendly advice, I ask them in a whisper if they would mind if I do. I do it in a whisper so as not to make them feel I'm calling them out in front of the group or trying to embarrass them. I don't think I've ever had someone tell me no when I asked before hand.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Jekerdud View Post
    So, when you have a raider that you know could be good, what do you do? How do you handle it?
    How do you handle burn-out? I'm no longer willing to help people that don't want to read up on their own or that don't ask me for help directly.
    If they ask in trade for help about simple things that can easily be solved with a little bit of tooltip reading I barely respond but I'm willing to engage in more detailed discussions about complex mechanics as that shows someone already did the first step to read up.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Jekerdud View Post
    So, when you have a raider that you know could be good, what do you do? How do you handle it?
    I point them to someone else.

    Unless they play feral dps, and I'm in a very good mood.

  16. #16
    If raid lead (or class/role lead) then I will tell people what I expect them to be able to do whether its dps, handling mechanics, general raid awareness etc. I will then offer examples of guild members who know their class very well to ask for advice and suggest resources on the internet that would help them.

    If someone is directed towards me for advice I will go through with them what their role entails, what they need to watch out for, what addons might help etc and will give them advice on what to do to practice. As I am a healer dummys aren't particularly useful, so I will suggest things like doing a heroic but drain all mana before the pulls to practice managing mana properly.

    If I am not doing the role of leading then I leave it up to the leads to handle it and will provide advice and observations to the leads when asked for. I don't talk to the people directly as I may just end up contradicting what the lead has already told them.

    While asking if they are open to advice might be a good idea outside of a guild raid, if they are in a raid then they need to take constructive criticism. If someone gets upset then they can switch to a social rank in the guild or leave. Personally outside of guild runs I tend not to bother giving advice, in 5-mans I'm the only healer in there so there is normally not much I can help them with other than strategies for a boss.

  17. #17
    I've done all sorts of coaching in a 25-man guild and in the end it really boils down to the attitude of the player towards their own performance and what they consider 'fun'. If doing high DPS isn't their goal or is too demanding from the way they normally play, no amount of coaching will change them. They'll sooner quit the game or get benched than to fix the problem, especially if the guild isn't in a position to be picky about their raiders which I believe applies to the vast majority of 25-man guilds.

    I've just met too many raiders that suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect and refuse to improve their performance to care anymore. I've found that ex-guild leaders are of the highest offenders in this respect when they are no longer in a lead position and just want to raid.

  18. #18
    I agree and over the years I have had some players that didn't start out great but over time developed into some very skilled players. At the same time coaching really shouldn't be required. Your raiders at this point should understand the resources available on the internet and learn from that.

  19. #19
    I just try and be friendly all the time, and try and share my knowledge while dishing out constructive criticism. Unfortunately people don't understand the difference between helpful criticism and trolling :/

  20. #20
    Brewmaster cyqu's Avatar
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    If your trying to help a raider in your guild and he thinks your a prick for doing so, why the hell is that person in your guild even?

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