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  1. #1

    One week in, how I think things are going for Warlocks.

    After a week on live, playing properly paying attention and things, on the back of some discussion in this thread I thought such discussion of how we feel things are broadly playing out deserved it’s own thread. I’ll kick off, with some clear Demo bias, with a summary of how things feel in terms of the good and the bad. Note some of this will be a rehash of problems I picked up from Beta, but have only served to be reinforced on Live.

    Good:

    Pandemic, greatly reduces the stance dancing for Demo and adds a lot of flexibility to the play of Affliction’s Haunt/MG weaving.

    Demo feels incredibly flexible, without loosing the feel of the old playstyle it has shifted, successfully a challenging rotation onto a model very strongly defined by it’s resource management. I honestly didn’t think I was going to enjoy it as much as I am doing.

    Affliction hasn’t turned out as just a variation on Shadow as I’d feared, that is in part testament to the changes Shadow itself received, but is largely down to the change to Haunt and the use of Soul Shards which add so much to the gameplay which allow it to have a little more adaptability to encounters than it had, without going overboard.

    Grimoire talents. I don’t like Sacrifice and it is a little strong for Affliction, but many do like it. Fortunately I don’t have to use it. That’s because it’s optional, thus the row works.

    Burning Rush. So much win.

    Imp Swarm.

    The rest of the talents up to and including 75. I’ve found use for basically everything on the talent pane with the exceptions of: Harvest Life, Sacrificial Pact, Blood Fear and Unbound Will. The latter two as I’ve not even tried any PvP, so much to do to get ready to raid! I can safely say there’s good reason to keep a stack of Tome of the Clear Mind in my bag.

    Less Good.

    Stance dancing as Demo. Pandemic almost fixes it. Almost, but because it ‘almost fixes’ something, it starts to make the ability feel more like a sticking plaster for the spec, than the bonus it truly is for Affliction. Similarly, it doesn’t help those moments when Corruption drops when you shift to Meta, blow Imps/Service then have a ToC miss leaving you with the sticky choice of dropping Meta to reapply or sitting out Dark Soul with no Corruption on target.

    Touch of Chaos auto-refreshing Corruption. I like that I now manage my dots properly as Affliction, having the auto-refresh takes that away, leads to the above problem, and generally gives me a lot less to do in Meta. Furthermore though, it leads people into a nasty trap of spending ~200 Fury inappropriately to maintain a DoT. I’ve learnt that’s a Bad Thing™ when that Fury can be better spent for more gains elsewhere – Many new and returning players will not realise or accept that because EJ/SimCraft says so. If they’re doing it “Right” and doing terribly or complaining of Fury starvation as a result, this is not good for the spec.

    Demonic Gateway. A lot has been said of the subject here and frankly, I just don’t ‘get it’. It doesn’t seem to be able to do the stuff I was wanting/expecting from it for myriad of reasons ranging from the technical limitations to the in built limitations. I ‘get’ they didn’t want to implement it, it turn out OP then have to nerf it, but in it’s current state I really am struggling to find a place for it and to justify it’s place on my action bars beyond that some other abilities got taken away and it just happens to fill a gap.

    Glyphs. Too much fluff and not enough stuff. Each specialisation basically has a mandatory glyph, Imps/Shards/Embers while the other two slots are pretty much going to be Soulstone and Siphon Life. Of the rest, some may have some limited PvP or soloing use, but are generally seemingly detrimental rather than offering a viable utility/alternate application.

    Level 90 talents. I feel like I could happily play with none taken. I use MF if I feel I can get away with it, but there’s such risk involved it’s just easier to pick up AV and forget about it. KjC is just awkward, and more worthwhile to make a /stopcasting /cast Fel Flame macro, even as Demo where you’re probably wanting to pool some Fury for a better moment than burning it when you’re dodging fire. I know it’s getting buffed, but picking a talent to go faster, then picking one to slow you down is a very contrary thing to do.

    Harvest Life. Still doesn’t feel like it fits as a talent.

    Sacrificial Pact. Don’t get why have a choice between two additional shields on top of the one we have baseline, or quite why I’d pick the self evidently less good one in spite of its lower cooldown. I feel like posting a Yo Dawg meme about shields on my shields…

    Too Good.
    Felstorm shouldn't be a single target DPS increase.
    Grimoire of Service: Felguard Felstorm as above, while providing massive AE burst.

    I'd be tempted to say Demo AoE in general, but DKs, Rets, Monks, and more absurdly, all classes of tank are also doing similarly stupid damage from what I've seen.

  2. #2
    Stood in the Fire Paarthurnax's Avatar
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    I 100% agree with the sentiment on our lvl 90 talents, the whole bunch are forgettable at best. I'm also frustrated at how abysmal affliction's aoe potential is compared to the other specs. Affliction isn't that far ahead on single target to justify such bad aoe.

    Oh and Onyx Eggs don't exist and Daily Quest rep grinds are BS!

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  3. #3
    The boring glyphs and level 90 talents are my biggest issue at the moment. You mentioned that Imp Swarm is a required talent but it's actually a dps loss right now.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomed View Post
    The boring glyphs and level 90 talents are my biggest issue at the moment. You mentioned that Imp Swarm is a required talent but it's actually a dps loss right now.
    I don't know where that information keeps coming from, but while its marginal either way on Patchwerk depending on gear, it's a substantial situational gain when used correctly.

  5. #5
    i did some tests on pre-raid gear on dummies, and all the specs were 0.400 dps of each other. impressive. obivously i know it's a stand fight and without raid buffs but anyways....

    Sincerely, i hate the new affliction, i feel like i'm always running out of time to haunt and i feel my dots are going to fall everytime... i really don't like it, but it's personal.

    I love the new demon and destro, i just think demon multi dot could be better cause it's weird to corruption two ads and them meta >> doom them again...

    i love the possibilitie of double cast doom while under effects of dark soul to make the duration almost the same as dark soul's cd.

    I love chaos wave on random heroic dungeon packs. but i deslike the fact you need to use void ray to aoe.. I also dislike the fact of harvest life is so better than hellfire for demonology.

    Gotta say that the change they made on voidwalker turned him on my favorite pet. he out-dps me sometimes while questing dialies. his void shield and AI is so damn good.

  6. #6
    Keeping in mind I haven't touched Destro, I'm pretty happy with things as they are at the moment. ToC missing is an issue with gearing, you should be hit capped if that's your play style. I think the issue with glyphs is not as big an problem as people like to say. If you have "powerful" glyphs then they become mandatory based on spec or encounter. Right now we're in a good spot where there are certainly better glyphs for certain encounters but it's small changes that depend on personal play style as well.

    As far as lvl 90 talents I'd much rather be balanced around solid fundamentals than super powerful 90 talents. I agree that I don't like KJC much but that's due to my play style I think more than a lack of potential use. Both AV and MF offer very interesting PvE options and I see myself having a fairly decent gold sink in progression swapping between those as well as encounter specific glyphs.

    I'm sure I'll have some bad things to say after I step into heroic raids next week but right now I'm content to play the class as it is.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-01 at 06:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Zharradan View Post
    i did some tests on pre-raid gear on dummies, and all the specs were 0.400 dps of each other. impressive. obivously i know it's a stand fight and without raid buffs but anyways....
    Does 0.400 mean 400 in your country? I know there's some very differing conventions for notations but if you really mean .4 dps I'd be extremely surprised if two individual tests I did of the same spec I did were that close.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Zharradan View Post
    Gotta say that the change they made on voidwalker turned him on my favorite pet. he out-dps me sometimes while questing dialies. his void shield and AI is so damn good.
    Have to agree with this one, Void Lord rocks. I went back to doing dailies as Affliction today after 2 days of Demo and it was like a warm bath. No more constantly healing my Wrathguard and having him die on me after 10 seconds with 3 mobs on him. And as long as SB;SS stays this way it makes doing dailies a breeze.

    I can agree with most of what Jessicka says too. One of the things I don't agree with is Sacrificial Pact. I like it, and don't see it as superfluous.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    I don't know where that information keeps coming from, but while its marginal either way on Patchwerk depending on gear, it's a substantial situational gain when used correctly.
    elitistjerks.com/f80/t130019-simulationcraft_warlocks_panda_edition/p27/#post2196879

    sorry I can't post links yet.

  9. #9
    Pandaren Monk Archimand's Avatar
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    im enjoying affliction with supremacy for all your pet tanking needs, my void walker is a beastial machine (completly diffrent then previous expensions)
    the rotation is fun even though aoe abit weak
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  10. #10
    WTB Glyph of Harvest Life:Harvest Life does 50% more damage but it doesn´t heal you anymore xDD

    And i think demo abilities consumes a bit too much mana ..

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Quae View Post
    WTB Glyph of Harvest Life:Harvest Life does 50% more damage but it doesn´t heal you anymore xDD

    And i think demo abilities consumes a bit too much mana ..
    I do like warlocks at the moment; i have mostly played demo and i am doing extremely well with it; tried destro and affli as well but switched back to demo after that. The only thing i really like with destro is the HUGE numbers.. CB crits for 150-170k and Souldburn crits for 220k+

    Atm im loving it, but i agree that demo runs out of mana super fast & Void Lord rocks like non other.

  12. #12
    Loving Destro. Great in pvp and pve so far, but we will see.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomed View Post
    elitistjerks.com/f80/t130019-simulationcraft_warlocks_panda_edition/p27/#post2196879

    sorry I can't post links yet.
    Okay. You do realise that sim is in the context of a Patchwerk style encounter with no movement or interruptions. Imp Swarm offers burst and on demand Fury generation which is invaluable on just about any encounter other than Patchwerk where there are periods where you need to basically react and be ready for stuff happening before the unglyphed Imps would have generated sufficient Fury. Same is true of using ToC to refresh Corruption as the profile suggests will almost always leave you starved when you need it.

  14. #14
    What isn't working:

    1) Awful lvl 90 talents (see other thread)

    2) Gateway too limited (see other thread)

    3) Outstanding bugs (GoSac Spell Lock, etc. - see other thread)

    4) Pet's are way too easy to kill - need much more HP. I'll never run with a pet outside of a raid currently.

    5) Glyphs for Destro are extremely lacking.

    6) Dark Bargain starting to feel like it has way too many drawbacks (DoT becomes very punishing, being CCable during it sucks, not being able to break CC with it sucks, not dropping threat with it sucks).


    What's weird:

    Thanks to Soul Harvest and Soul Consumption, our self healing while dailying or 5maning is godly. However, our self-healing in raids/arenas is terrible.

  15. #15
    Fluffy Kitten Zinnin's Avatar
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    On Imp Swarm;

    In simcraft, using the t14N profile, it is a 0.5% loss (that is 500 dps when you are doing 94k) to use imp swarm.

    The max peak at the start of a fight using imp swarm goes from 189k dps to 228k, trading 500 theoretical dps, for that much of a burst gain in damage as well as fury can be huge.

    So, things I don't like and do like so far at 90:

    Like:
    Demo - Basically everything about it, I like ToC refreshing corruption, don't mind doom being meta only. My only complaint is that the cooldown on meta feels too long, I think 5 seconds wouldn't be as bad \ annoying.

    Level 75 row of talents - Been using all three in different scenarios, they are all fun.

    Mannoroth's Fury - Completely awesome

    Don't Like:
    Soul Link - Feels only useful if I am using GoSac, pet avoidance needs to be nearly 99% reduced damage from AoE, something huge like 75% reduced damage from players for it to feel too useable.

    Health Funnel - Doesn't feel like its enough to keep my pet up, using glyphed health funnel my pet was still dying to the water \ aoe puddles on Wise Mari challenge mode and there is no easy way to maneuver my pet much there. Would like to see the heal doubled.

    Sacrificial pact - The shield being based off how much health you currently have makes it feel weak and the duration feels too low for it to be worth using (GoSac). Combined with how low our pets health is and how weak health funnel is it is very easy for your pet do die.

    Archimonde's Vengeance - A talent designed for 'players that don't want to press anything' is a cop out. This was an amazing replacement suggested by someone a month or so again, I still think it is amazing. The values are probably too high, but the basic idea is interesting, isn't a overall dps again, but is powerful utility.

    Archimonde's Wrath (Buff, Undispellable):
    2min cooldown
    For the next 20 sec, whenever your deal spell dmg Archimonde's Wrath will deal an additional 20% dmg to the target. When the effect ends you are afflicted by Defiler's Grasp (horrid name, but Im running short on imagination). Cannot be cast on targets below 25% health.

    Defiler's Grasp (Debuff, Undispellable):
    Duration: 10min
    30% of all spell dmg you deal is absorbed by Defiler's Grasp, lasts 10mins, or until it absorbs an amount of dmg equal to the dmg dealth by Archimonde's Wrath.
    Kil'jaeden's Cunning - Cooldown portion of it still feels weak, would rather see both cooldown and duration doubled. Either that or make it so it isn't disabled while on cooldown.

    Rain of Fire Stun - 2s stun after three ticks is nearly useless, also would like to see a glyph to remove it for times you don't want to DR stuns, but still want the AoE damage.

    Guardians - Inferno is a pretty weak AoE cooldown, and Doomguard just isn't fun. I think their durations could be cut, and damage increased a little, but even then doomguard isn't fun to press and even though inferno is, it doesn't do enough damage to be worth using in most scenarios.

    So, to be fair I am also going to list the things I feel are way to strong:
    Ember tap - not having a cooldown
    Soul burn soul swap - not having a cooldown
    Shadow Bulwark - in combination with so many % based heals (GoSac)
    Last edited by Zinnin; 2012-10-01 at 10:44 PM.

  16. #16
    Imp Swarm was originally a rotational ability. It become tedious to use at a 30 sec cooldown, so it became a proc. People missed the giant clump of imp (I did too, honestly!) but Demonology was already too complex.

    We made it a glyph and *bam* opt-in complexity, plus awesome utility. The fact that it's a DPS loss at all is really just to keep it from being mandatory.

  17. #17
    Herald of the Titans Bathory's Avatar
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    I like the gateway, but yeah I was a bit disappointed and confused by it, and its limitations.

    I think it would have been better as a lvl 85 spell
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
    Imp Swarm was originally a rotational ability. It become tedious to use at a 30 sec cooldown, so it became a proc. People missed the giant clump of imp (I did too, honestly!) but Demonology was already too complex.

    We made it a glyph and *bam* opt-in complexity, plus awesome utility. The fact that it's a DPS loss at all is really just to keep it from being mandatory.
    Except it is mandatory because of what it offers :3 I don't mind that so much, because it does work so well at ticking so many boxes in such an awesome way; conceptually and mechanically it is probably my favourite thing, and I've updated the OP accordingly. If only there were other Glyphs/Talents that did the the same sort of things, then it would truly be optional :O

  19. #19
    Brewmaster Daedelus's Avatar
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    I just want to add - Demonic Leap off the top of stairs - WIN.

    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    Have to agree with this one, Void Lord rocks. I went back to doing dailies as Affliction today after 2 days of Demo and it was like a warm bath. No more constantly healing my Wrathguard and having him die on me after 10 seconds with 3 mobs on him. And as long as SB;SS stays this way it makes doing dailies a breeze.
    I roll with Demo + Void Lord for dailies and scenarios and he really is a beast. He can tank anything without healing.
    Last edited by Daedelus; 2012-10-02 at 12:23 AM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by zinnin View Post
    Archimonde's Vengeance - A talent designed for 'players that don't want to press anything' is a cop out. This was an amazing replacement suggested by someone a month or so again, I still think it is amazing. The values are probably too high, but the basic idea is interesting, isn't a overall dps again, but is powerful utility.
    Archimonde's Wrath (Buff, Undispellable):
    2min cooldown
    For the next 20 sec, whenever your deal spell dmg Archimonde's Wrath will deal an additional 20% dmg to the target. When the effect ends you are afflicted by Defiler's Grasp (horrid name, but Im running short on imagination). Cannot be cast on targets below 25% health.

    Defiler's Grasp (Debuff, Undispellable):
    Duration: 10min
    30% of all spell dmg you deal is absorbed by Defiler's Grasp, lasts 10mins, or until it absorbs an amount of dmg equal to the dmg dealth by Archimonde's Wrath.
    A level 90 talent like Arcane Power or Nature's Vigil without the additional benefits, but with a huge drawback? I must be reading this wrong, because you can't possibly think that would be a worthy level 90 talent.

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