1. #581
    Bloodsail Admiral Dutchmagoz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spaace View Post
    All these people using "the best way". Can we see some logs?

    I just assume "i do lots of dps" is only around 70-80k single target..
    But dude, I'm top dps in my raidgroup! That means w/e im doing must be the best possible rotation/setup.

  2. #582
    Quote Originally Posted by Dannemmar View Post
    Has anyone come up with a good actionlist to simulate the evo/haste arcane build on simulationcraft ?

    I find that this action list give me the higher dps but i'm not an expert with simulationcraft

    Did you take a look at the mana timeline? When I use your action list, I get a very weird and wrong mana timeline:

    tinyurl.com/c2ju8aq


    Does your mana timeline look better? Maybe it's an issue on my side? Or could it be a simcraft bug?

    I tried to create my own action list but as soon as I insert missiles the mana timeline looks like this and I can't figure out why.

    Even with this very basic action list it looks like the image above:
    Code:
    actions=/evocation,if=(mana.pct<30|buff.invocation.down)
    actions+=/arcane_missiles,if=buff.arcane_missiles.react
    actions+=/arcane_blast

    Without Missiles, the mana looks fine.

  3. #583
    Just to clarify, the only difference between the trinket rankings on the first page for a haste arcane build is that H-LotC > RoY? I wanted to make sure that even a non-upgraded N-EoT was better than a 2/2 N-LotC.

    Thanks in advance!

  4. #584
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mengele View Post
    Just to clarify, the only difference between the trinket rankings on the first page for a haste arcane build is that H-LotC > RoY? I wanted to make sure that even a non-upgraded N-EoT was better than a 2/2 N-LotC.

    Thanks in advance!
    It's variable; but 0/2 N-EoT is not better than 2/2 LotC. 2/2 is probably a different story.

    My suggestion is go to SimCraft, take a look at your weights and go from there.

  5. #585
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    I´ve switched to arcane recently with a haste/invo build. I did pretty well, with surprisingly very high dps. Then I got my hands on EoT heroic last night and I don´t know which trinkets are the best for me now.

    Right now I´m using Light of Cosmos heroic 1/2 and Relic 2/2 with 11,8k haste unbuffed. I have no Idea which trinket to use, because I´m @ ~87% haste during bloodlust and ~120% with EoT hc, and there are many encounters where we starting the fight with bloodlust and the trinket proc would be wasted.

    According to my math (assuming everything procs on cd and none proc is extended by Alter Time), I´ve got the following results:

    Eot hc 0/2: 1300 Int 1485 haste
    LoC hc 1/2: 1685 Int 1265 haste
    Ro Yul. 2/2: 2009 Int

    Simcraft told me with frost armor and invocation 1 Int gives me 4.77 dps and 1 Haste gives me 2.22 dps

    so all together were @

    Eot hc 0/2: 9497.7 dps
    LoC hc 1/2: 10846 dps
    Ro Yul. 2/2: 9583 dps

    That means to me "go upgrade EoT and LoC and enjoy yourselves", but the haste is still an issue for me. One solution could be a macro, where I´m going to apply EoT right before the pull, if the raid is using bloodlust at the beginning of the fight. It should be ready, if arcane power is comming of cooldown the next time. But is that really the best I can do?

    I´m confused and need help!


    *Edit*

    Not to forget the QoL issue with EoT. Sometimes it felt years before it proccs (annyoing on the pull)
    Last edited by citizenpete; 2013-02-08 at 10:38 AM.

  6. #586
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by citizenpete View Post
    I´ve switched to arcane recently with a haste/invo build. I did pretty well, with surprisingly very high dps. Then I got my hands on EoT heroic last night and I don´t know which trinkets are the best for me now.

    Right now I´m using Light of Cosmos heroic 1/2 and Relic 2/2 with 11,8k haste unbuffed. I have no Idea which trinket to use, because I´m @ ~87% haste during bloodlust and ~120% with EoT hc, and there are many encounters where we starting the fight with bloodlust and the trinket proc would be wasted.

    According to my math (assuming everything procs on cd and none proc is extended by Alter Time), I´ve got the following results:

    Eot hc 0/2: 1300 Int 1485 haste
    LoC hc 1/2: 1685 Int 1265 haste
    Ro Yul. 2/2: 2009 Int

    Simcraft told me with frost armor and invocation 1 Int gives me 4.77 dps and 1 Haste gives me 2.22 dps

    so all together were @

    Eot hc 0/2: 9497.7 dps
    LoC hc 1/2: 10846 dps
    Ro Yul. 2/2: 9583 dps

    That means to me "go upgrade EoT and LoC and enjoy yourselves", but the haste is still an issue for me. One solution could be a macro, where I´m going to apply EoT right before the pull, if the raid is using bloodlust at the beginning of the fight. It should be ready, if arcane power is comming of cooldown the next time. But is that really the best I can do?

    I´m confused and need help!


    *Edit*

    Not to forget the QoL issue with EoT. Sometimes it felt years before it proccs (annyoing on the pull)
    I don't have to do the Maths to tell you that 2/2 LotC HC and 2/2 EoT HC will be BiS, especially if you're Haste build. I think Relic is slightly better for all-out-Mastery build, not even 100% sure on that though, as at the moment LotC proc has a higher uptime in almost all Logs than Blessing of the Celestials and that proc is pretty beastly.

  7. #587
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    And what about my haste hardcap issue? Do you think it´s the beste way to delay it for the next AP? Or should I reforge down to approx 8000k to be @ 100% haste during lust? But that would mess up the rest of the fight, I guess.

  8. #588
    Simming is the best answer to this. At some gear levels just ignoring it and keep going with haste is best, at some reforging to soft cap and going mastery is better.

    But if you're playing invo for every fight, just ignore the soft cap, you're benefiting from more haste better than you would mastery.

  9. #589
    Is there a general consensus that mastery is a little better than haste with RoP?

    I'm asking because I've done quite a number of simcraft simulations of my mage and other mages with average item levels from 475 to over 500 using the standard RoP action list. Haste always had higher scale factors than mastery, regardless of whether they were mastery build (nearly all) or haste build.

    There was only one mage where haste was not better but equal to mastery. It was a haste build mage with more than 11000 haste and mastery seemed to slowly take over.

    So judging by Simcraft results haste seems to be better but that doesn't go in line with nearly all guides favoring mastery für RoP and all those WoL ranked mastery Mages. It's really hard to find a ranked haste-RoP Mage.
    Last edited by noxx2k; 2013-02-11 at 12:09 AM.

  10. #590
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    @noxx2k - it's true, Simcraft predominantly suggests Haste as the better stat, but I've always valued Mastery higher and so my guide is also written in favor of Mastery.

    The thing is - Simcraft is pushing you to the highest possible Haste breakpoint based on your current gear. When I had a 460 item level, it was keeping me at the first breakpoint, when I was at 485, it was pushing me towards 6414 Haste and then switching to Mastery. Now that I'm at 498 who knows what Simcraft would want with me.

    I'm currently staying at 3700 Haste and I'm happy with my damage. However, when we get to higher item levels, I plan to get to the 6414 Nether Tempest breakpoint and stay there while focusing everything else into Mastery (if the RoP - Mastery spec is still viable come 5.2). I would assume that in 5.4 we'll be able to easily reach even the higher breakpoint while still focusing most items on Mastery.

  11. #591
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    @noxx2k - it's true, Simcraft predominantly suggests Haste as the better stat, but I've always valued Mastery higher and so my guide is also written in favor of Mastery.

    The thing is - Simcraft is pushing you to the highest possible Haste breakpoint based on your current gear. When I had a 460 item level, it was keeping me at the first breakpoint, when I was at 485, it was pushing me towards 6414 Haste and then switching to Mastery. Now that I'm at 498 who knows what Simcraft would want with me.

    I'm currently staying at 3700 Haste and I'm happy with my damage. However, when we get to higher item levels, I plan to get to the 6414 Nether Tempest breakpoint and stay there while focusing everything else into Mastery (if the RoP - Mastery spec is still viable come 5.2). I would assume that in 5.4 we'll be able to easily reach even the higher breakpoint while still focusing most items on Mastery.
    Personally I'm at (just beyond) the 6414 Haste breakpoint (though it's 6343 for me as I use Frost Armor) and I'm reforging purely into Mastery and Hit at the moment. I'm also GCD capped under Zerking and BL; which is another reason why I'm not going beyond that Haste point. I could potentially be losing DPS here by doing so but at the moment I'm not seeing my numbers suffer, so.

  12. #592
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    Eh I have two heroic items ready for use but I can't put them on until I get the tier helmet which has been eluding me like my love life. Then I'll be able to play a bit again with haste levels.

  13. #593
    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    The thing is - Simcraft is pushing you to the highest possible Haste breakpoint based on your current gear. When I had a 460 item level, it was keeping me at the first breakpoint, when I was at 485, it was pushing me towards 6414 Haste and then switching to Mastery. Now that I'm at 498 who knows what Simcraft would want with me.
    I don't think Simcraft cares about what haste numbers and breakpoints you could achieve with your gear. According to their wiki, it just adds 300 haste or mastery and compares the resulting dps to the one without adding 300 stats. Even if you're 301 haste away from the next Nether Tempest tick.

    Anyways, I was just wondering if there was a practical benefit of stacking mastery that I am not aware of to make it better than haste, the latter being a little better in the sims. As long as there is none, the difference in (theoretical) dps between haste and mastery is not big so I believe it comes down to personal preference.

    You did a good job in your guide to also point out that haste is more than viable but most other guides say that mastery is better than haste which - afaik - is just wrong.

    By the way: I don't know if it was already mentioned as I didn't read all 30 pages but Binkenstein (well known Elemental Shaman theorycrafter) wrote an interesting article on haste breakpoints in his blog: totemspot.com/vb/entry.php?b=71 (I'm not allowed to post links yet so you have to copy & paste, sorry)
    He comes to the conclusion that casters shouldn't bother with haste breakpoints unless they're very close to reaching a breakpoint already.
    Last edited by noxx2k; 2013-02-11 at 03:01 PM.

  14. #594
    Hello guys .. I still cant decide if i should use normal version of shatouched upgraded with 2 sockets over my x 2 times upgraded Elite sword from Protectors So confused .... Dot wanna make a mistake and enchat it with Jade Spirit , upgrade x 2 Vp and just dont use it at the end .. I mean the Sha Touched normal version Tsulong sword.

  15. #595
    Quote Originally Posted by Elenica View Post
    Hello guys .. I still cant decide if i should use normal version of shatouched upgraded with 2 sockets over my x 2 times upgraded Elite sword from Protectors So confused .... Dot wanna make a mistake and enchat it with Jade Spirit , upgrade x 2 Vp and just dont use it at the end .. I mean the Sha Touched normal version Tsulong sword.
    Just use askmrobot with the right stats weight or simcraft it
    Made by mountandpetlover, big thanks !

  16. #596
    Quote Originally Posted by noxx2k View Post

    Anyways, I was just wondering if there was a practical benefit of stacking mastery that I am not aware of to make it better than haste, the latter being a little better in the sims. As long as there is none, the difference in (theoretical) dps between haste and mastery is not big so I believe it comes down to personal preference.

    You did a good job in your guide to also point out that haste is more than viable but most other guides say that mastery is better than haste which - afaik - is just wrong.
    Mastery is stacked because on any fight with adds it is better as for the most part you are putting NT on everything and spamming missiles at 6 stacks and 100% mana (think Empress add phase). On purely single target fights haste is slightly better than mastery I think?
    Drooul-Magtheridon <Guiles Theme Song>
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  17. #597
    Great guide, thanks for writing it.

    I'm still a bit confused on AOEing as an Arcane Mage, different sources seem to recommend different things:

    This guide:
    Clustered Targets

    1. Apply Bomb (or several Bombs - NT by multidotting, LB by Glyph of Fire Blast)
    2. Flamestrike
    3. Arcane Explosion
    4. Arcane Barrage when number of targets = Charges + 1

    3.1.2 Spread Targets

    1. Apply Bombs
    2. Single target
    3. Barrage if possible to hit multiple targets

    -----

    Binkenstein recommends the following:
    Multi Target Rotation (2-4 targets)
    Cast Nether Tempest on all targets
    Arcane Missiles IF Arcane Missiles! > 0
    Arcane Barrage IF Arcane Charge > # Targets - 1 OR Mana <83%
    Arcane Blast
    The goal here is to get as many Arcane Barrages cast as possible, which means never saving Arcane Missiles! buffs. Since it casts copies of the spell at additional targets for 50% damage, you only need to get a charge stack one less than the number of targets.

    AoE Rotation
    Mage Bomb IF you have Frost Bomb
    Arcane Missiles IF Arcane Missiles! > 0 AND # Targets < # Arcane Charge + 3
    Arcane Barrage IF Arcane Charge = 6
    Arcane Explosion


    Blatty says not to use Flamestrike at all

    Lhivera says Nether tempest has higher priority than Flamestrike when there are 2-5 targets, and higher priority than Arcane explosion for 2-8 targets.

    the Elitist Jerks guide recommends the following:2 – 4 targets:

    Evocation 1 - 2 sec before buff expires, Incanter’s Ward when guaranteed incoming damage (either raidwide or deliberate running into bad), or Rune of Power 1 - 2 sec before the rune expires.
    AP when weapon enchant or /and trinket proccs.
    Mirror Image on CD (unless the fight is not likely to last another 30 sec, or unless you're keeping it in reserve for aggro dumping)
    Use major cooldowns like MI, AP and spam AB for 6 stacks of AC (unless the fight is not likely to last another 30 sec, or unless you're keeping it in reserve for Boss / Main target burst phase).
    Mage Bomb if about to expire / off CD.
    Flamestrike on CD.
    ABr when the number of AC stacks equals the number of mobs -1.
    Living Bomb/Nether Tempest on or just before expiry, or Frost Bomb on CD
    Fire Blast to spread / Explode DoTs(if glyphed).
    | G91 Landshark can be very usefull on AoE


    5+ targets

    Evocation 1 - 2 sec before buff expires, Incanter’s Ward when guaranteed incoming damage (either raidwide or deliberate running into bad), or Rune of Power 1 - 2 sec before the rune expires.
    AP when weapon enchant or /and trinket proccs.
    Mirror Image on CD (unless the fight is not likely to last another 30 sec, or unless you're keeping it in reserve for aggro dumping)
    Use major cooldowns like MI, AP and spam AB for 6 stacks of AC.
    Mage Bomb if about to expire / off CD.
    Flamestrike.
    Arcane Explosion
    Living Bomb/Nether Tempest on or just before expiry, or Frost Bomb on CD
    Fire Blast to spread / Explode DoTs
    | G91 Landshark can be very usefull on AoE
    Refresh Flamestrike*
    Arcane Explosion spam to keep the AC stacks up(make sure you are on a RoP)
    ABr to dump your AC stacks, then rebuild with AE.


    Could we get some consensus on what is best? Thanks in advance.
    Last edited by Kathos; 2013-02-12 at 07:32 AM.

  18. #598
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathos View Post
    Great guide, thanks for writing it.

    I'm still a bit confused on AOEing as an Arcane Mage, different sources seem to recommend different things:

    This guide:
    Clustered Targets

    1. Apply Bomb (or several Bombs - NT by multidotting, LB by Glyph of Fire Blast)
    2. Flamestrike
    3. Arcane Explosion
    4. Arcane Barrage when number of targets = Charges + 1

    3.1.2 Spread Targets

    1. Apply Bombs
    2. Single target
    3. Barrage if possible to hit multiple targets

    -----

    Binkenstein recommends the following:
    Multi Target Rotation (2-4 targets)
    Cast Nether Tempest on all targets
    Arcane Missiles IF Arcane Missiles! > 0
    Arcane Barrage IF Arcane Charge > # Targets - 1 OR Mana <83%
    Arcane Blast
    The goal here is to get as many Arcane Barrages cast as possible, which means never saving Arcane Missiles! buffs. Since it casts copies of the spell at additional targets for 50% damage, you only need to get a charge stack one less than the number of targets.

    AoE Rotation
    Mage Bomb IF you have Frost Bomb
    Arcane Missiles IF Arcane Missiles! > 0 AND # Targets < # Arcane Charge + 3
    Arcane Barrage IF Arcane Charge = 6
    Arcane Explosion


    Blatty says not to use Flamestrike at all

    Lhivera says Nether tempest has higher priority than Flamestrike when there are 2-5 targets, and higher priority than Arcane explosion for 2-8 targets.

    Could we get some consensus on what is best? Thanks in advance.
    They all work.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

  19. #599
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    They all work.
    But for each amount of targets there must be an optimal priority right?

  20. #600
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathos View Post
    But for each amount of targets there must be an optimal priority right?
    Really the only way you can go wrong with Arcane AoE is to use Blizzard.

    The most simple and robust rotation is to LB cleave, AB/AM, and Barrage at the appropriate stacks. This works for pretty much all cases regardless of the number of adds.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

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