Iran Vs Israel War. Would you want your country to get involved?

[mistuhbull]

Are you sure?
"After a period of high tension between Israel and its neighbors, the war began on June 5 with Israel launching surprise bombing raids against Egyptian air-fields".


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day...ary_air_attack

Also Jerusalem is a holy city to all 3 abrahamic religions, stop being so ignorant, it was also capital of the Muslim world at one point in history.

And the air attack followed the massing of troops by the arab nations on the Israeli border area and the closing of the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping which Israel had declared previously that it would consider an act of war.


you were saying?

The Straits of Tiran was regarded by the Western Powers and Israel as an international waterway[28][51][52] but its legal status was the subject of international controversy.[53] The Arabs believed that they had the right to regulate passage of ships while Israel, with the support of other major world powers, countered that the Arab claims were legally not supportable.[54] In 1967 Israel reiterated declarations made in 1957 that any closure of the Straits would be considered an act of war, or a justification for war.[55][56] On May 22 Nasser declared the Straits closed to Israeli shipping.[28][57] Nasser stated he was open to referring the closure to the International Court of Justice to determine its legality, but this option was rejected by Israel.[58][59] Egyptian propaganda attacked Israel,[60] and on May 27, Nasser stated "Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight."[61]

[Deleted]

Are you sure?
"After a period of high tension between Israel and its neighbors, the war began on June 5 with Israel launching surprise bombing raids against Egyptian air-fields".


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day...ary_air_attack



Also Jerusalem is a holy city to all 3 abrahamic religions, stop being so ignorant, it was also capital of the Muslim world at one point in history.

You conviently left out the pretext to that war.

A city can't be a capital to a religion, that's ridiculous. If not there is nothing stopping people from starting a religion claiming Washington DC for their capital. I bet you would support that, right?

[Kasierith]

And the air attack followed the massing of troops by the arab nations on the Israeli border area and the closing of the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping which Israel had declared previously that it would consider an act of war.

Sorry to disagree with you, but.. "At the commencement of hostilities, both Egypt and Israel announced that they had been attacked by the other country.[153] The Israeli government later abandoned its initial position, acknowledging Israel had struck first, claiming that it was a pre-emptive strike in the face of a planned invasion by the Arab countries.[153][154] On the other hand, the Arab view was that it was an unjustified attack."

It is irrefutable that the first act of war was committed by Israel.

[mistuhbull]

Sorry to disagree with you, but.. "At the commencement of hostilities, both Egypt and Israel announced that they had been attacked by the other country.[153] The Israeli government later abandoned its initial position, acknowledging Israel had struck first, claiming that it was a pre-emptive strike in the face of a planned invasion by the Arab countries.[153][154] On the other hand, the Arab view was that it was an unjustified attack"

So because the Arab states think it was unjustified it must have been?

Or did we miss the Israel i declaration in 1957 about the Straits of Tiran or the mass arab troop deployment to the Border areas prior to the actual fight, or the recovered documents outlining the plans for imminent attacks?

[Kasierith]

You conviently left out the pretext to that war.

A city can't be a capital to a religion, that's ridiculous. If not there is nothing stopping people from starting a religion claiming Washington DC for their capital. I bet you would support that, right?

You realize how absolutely ridiculous you sound, seeing as the reason for Israel being given Jerusalem was based on the history of the people, which gives the same claim to the nation (and please, look up nation before you cry about it) that has been in control of it far more recently in history. The state of Israel having it as their capital right now doesn't invalidate the history of the city and the importance of it to multiple people. Why is Jerusalem their capital? Because its the most holy city of the religious group that the entire state is based on.

So because the Arab states think it was unjustified it must have been?

Or did we miss the Israel i declaration in 1957 about the Straits of Tiran or the mass arab troop deployment to the Border areas prior to the actual fight, or the recovered documents outlining the plans for imminent attacks?

I never talked about whether or not it was justified; I was pointing out that Israel, as they themselves said, started the war. As I implied in my edit.

[draganid]

i live in canada and no, i do not want us to support israel. this is going to sound pretty harsh but israel doesnt even have a right to exist as a country. that land had belonged to the palestinian people for like a 1000 years and after the second world war the western world decided that instead of taking in all the displaced jews they essentially decided "well we dont want them and theres lots of other arab countries anyways lets just steal this land from them and give it to the jews" there will never be peace in the middle east as long as israel exists as israel and not as it rightfully should, palestine.

i hope that iran completly kicks the shit out of israel and that no more western lives are wasted in the middle east, let them solve their own problems for a change

[mistuhbull]

You realize how absolutely ridiculous you sound, seeing as the reason for Israel being given Jerusalem was based on the history of the people, which gives the same claim to the nation (and please, look up nation before you cry about it) that has been in control of it far more recently in history. The state of Israel having it as their capital right now doesn't invalidate the history of the city and the importance of it to multiple people. Why is Jerusalem their capital? Because its the most holy city of the religious group that the entire state is based on.



I never talked about whether or not it was justified; I was pointing out that Israel, as they themselves said, started the war. As I implied in my edit.

Israel struck first, Egypt started the War.

Israel declared (with the support of other nations) significantly prior to the fighting that the closing of the Straits of Tiran to shipping would be considered as an act of war.

It is irrefutable proof that Egypt committed the first act of war.

[Kasierith]

Israel struck first, Egypt started the War.

Israel declared (with the support of other nations) significantly prior to the fighting that the closing of the Straits of Tiran to shipping would be considered as an act of war.

It is irrefutable proof that Egypt committed the first act of war.

Not as irrefutable as you might think.

"On the other hand, the Arab view was that it was an unjustified attack.[13] After the war, Israeli officials admitted that Israel wasn't expecting to be attacked when it initiated hostilities against Egypt. [14][15] Mordechai Bentov, an Israeli cabinet minister who attended the June 4th Cabinet meeting, called into question the idea that there was a "danger of extermination" saying that it was "invented of whole cloth and exaggerated after the fact to justify the annexation of new Arab territories."[16][17] Menachem Begin said that "The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. (...) We decided to attack him". [18][19] Israel received reports from the United States to the effect that Egyptian deployments were defensive and anticipatory of a possible Israeli attack, [20] and the US assessed that if anything, it was Israel that was pressing to begin hostilities. [17] Abba Eban, Israel's foreign minister during the war, later wrote in his autobiography that Nasser's assurances he wasn't planning to attack Israel were credible: "Nasser did not want war. He wanted victory without war." [21] Military historian Martin van Creveld has written that while the exact origins of the war may never be known, Israel's forces were "spoiling for a fight and willing to go to considerable lengths to provoke one". [22] Israel's attack isn't seen as fulfilling the criteria of the Caroline test for anticipatory self-defence"

But if you want to go with the direct act of war option with the straights, no. Israel disagrees with you on this. I don't know how you can waltz around a direct statement by their government.

[Algearond]

Yes I would. That whole region is problematic and Iran has it out for Isreal for no reason.

[N-7]

Fars news now, really? You do know that fars news is a mouthpiece for the Iranian regime? The Iranian president has even stated what I said above in the UN so it's all on record. Look it up and be factual or I won't bother continuing with you since I'm not interested in debating fiction.

An israeli source : http://www.jpost.com/IranianThreat/N...aspx?id=286034

"ranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad told the Washington Post on Sunday that the Israeli-Arab conflict should be resolved by allowing the Palestinians to vote the "Zionist regime" out of existence".

Asked by interviewer David Ignatius to affirm Israel's right to exist, Ahmadinejad said "I think they should allow the people of Palestine in all the territories of Palestine to decide, and whatever they decide, that is what should be done." He added: "This doesn’t need nuclear weapons, missiles rockets or destroying people’s homes."a. He wants the Palestinians to decide what they want to do with the land and believes that the land belongs to the Palestinians therefore he won't launch a nuclear weapon at a land that he wants to give to the Palestinians.

And you haven't refuted any of my other points really:
b. http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/places/jerusalem.htm / http://islam.about.com/od/jerusalem/a/quds.htm (Jerusalem importance for Muslims) <<< No comments about this? since Iran is a theocracy this one seems pretty important.


2. a. http://www.globalfirepower.com/ (US is 1 and Israel is 10 and Iran is 12 although these are just rough numbers it is really obvious who is going to win a conventional warfare) b. See what happened to the Iraqi regime after the war? same applies here.


3. Is just my personal opinion on why Iran would want nuclear weapons (if it really do).


---------- Post added 2012-10-03 at 09:27 PM ----------

You conviently left out the pretext to that war.

A city can't be a capital to a religion, that's ridiculous. If not there is nothing stopping people from starting a religion claiming Washington DC for their capital. I bet you would support that, right?

Well the Jews claim that Jerusalem is their "religious capital" what a bunch of hypocrites.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/huntley...of-israel.html

"Only an imbecile could attempt to imagine a final settlement in which Jerusalem would not be the capital of Israel. Does any rational person think the Israelis are going to turn the wrecking ball on the Knesset? Pull out the Bible, read the familiar Jewish stories of the holy city. King David made it the seat of Jewish sovereignty 3,000 years ago. The First Temple was built there by King Solomon but razed by Babylonians. The Second Temple rose in its place, but was destroyed by the Romans. Muslims built the Dome of the Rock on the Temple site, yet the Western Wall remains. Only during the cruel Jordanian occupation of east Jerusalem until 1967 were Jews denied the right to worship there."

---------- Post added 2012-10-03 at 09:30 PM ----------

Yes I would. That whole region is problematic and Israel has it out for Iran for no reason.

Fixed that for you.

[Rufin]

United States resident here.

I personally would not want the States to go in with ground forces and aid in any taking of cities/occupations. I support drone strikes and bombings on strategic locations and key areas, but boots on the ground would just be a mess. With air strikes we can still uphold our support of Israel without bogging ourselves down massively.

The real problem with this is that drone strikes almost always have collateral damage which just brings about more enemies. So ideally I wouldn't want us involved at all, but you know, push comes to shove the US is always going to help Israel.

[Xires]

I'm American. Why should we help Israel? How much did they help in Iraq and Afghanistan? None.

Because if they got involved it would 100% screw up the middle east as every arab country hates Israel. In the first gulf war when Saddam was launching missiles at Israel we (the US) told them NOT to fire back as it would destroy our alliances with the arab nations. The middle east is a LOT different then you think and they think differently then western nations. We wouldn't allow israel to get involved in Iraq or Afghanistan.

[semaphore]

Israel struck first, Egypt started the War.

Israel declared (with the support of other nations) significantly prior to the fighting that the closing of the Straits of Tiran to shipping would be considered as an act of war.

It is irrefutable proof that Egypt committed the first act of war.

Unilaterally declaring something as an "act of war", doesn't actually make it an act of war. It was within the rights of Egypt to close its territorial waters to a hostile nation, and while it could be termed a reckless escalation of tension, trying to claim the moral high grounds by pretending it's an "act of war" is hilariously biased.

---------- Post added 2012-10-05 at 04:07 AM ----------

Or did we miss the Israel i declaration in 1957 about the Straits of Tiran or the mass arab troop deployment to the Border areas prior to the actual fight, or the recovered documents outlining the plans for imminent attacks?

Egypt sent 2 divisions, nobody seriously thought they were going to attack with only 2 divisions. And no, do not try to liken the combat power of 2 Egyptian divisions to 2 United States divisions.

For reference during the Yom Kippur War, the Egyptian Order of Battle consisted of 9 divisions and 3 independent brigades.

[Arganaut]

UK, and I personally think we should NOT get involved, and I also think we should break off all military agreements with the USA.

Not the greatest idea.

[schwarzkopf]

I live in Australia - and I wouldn't want the US to get involved.

Why - ANZUS is why.

---------- Post added 2012-10-05 at 06:53 AM ----------

Yes I would. That whole region is problematic and Iran has it out for Isreal for no reason.

Odd, all the threats about bombing another country I've heard recently have been Israel talking about bombing Iran.

[cFortyfive]

Securing some oil would actually be at least something worthwhile to do for that activity therapy group we call an army.