Mage 90 Talents are terrible

[Skadovsk]

I am very much confident that I'll incorporate Invocation into Arcane's playstyle somehow. All three talents seem great to me, because they require learning and practice.

It just doesn't work with arcane, arcane's mastery is all about being as close to 100% mana as possible.
Invocation reduces your mana regen.

[Shangalar]

It reduces your mana regen in favour of a superbuff and all it forces you to do is to never go from 5 to 6 stacks with blast. During power you even need to stop at 4. Missiles and Barrage are stronger spells anyway.

[Ellsian]

They've been terribad talents that have been complained about for the last 3 months of beta, but the devs completely ignored all feedback. The devs admitted that talents were designed with only arcane's mana playstyle in mind, that's why they're so horribly sad for fire and frost to deal with.

[Shangalar]

Fire and Frost get free damage without worrying about mana anyway. Arcane gets something that's very important to their gameplay. From a "these talents suck" point of view, Fire and Frost players who don't like complicated can be happy, they need to maintain something and that's it. Arcane on the other hand gets 3 different playstyles changed even more when you activate Power, upping it to 6 different rotation/priority lists.

Most of the complaining came from the "I hate maintenance buffs" and "This isn't shiny enough" departments (and the "wtf I wanted a Summon: Phoenix" like it made any sense whatsoever). That sucks considering the developers feel completely different about this, but their idea was to limit our mobility as much as possible and they succeeded.

Now, I would understand the desire for the talents to be changed in a way that they do something different for all 3 specs (like they do for Arcane). But I really really can't understand the "this sucks because it sucks and we have to cast stupid evocation or stand in a rune or take damage on purpose" position. Why not work around it? If you're all already at level 90, why not spend some time testing it and then reporting your findings? Or even better, wait for Mogu'Shan Vaults to open and let's continue the discussion then.

[DreamSpyre]

Fire and Frost get free damage without worrying about mana anyway. Arcane gets something that's very important to their gameplay. From a "these talents suck" point of view, Fire and Frost players who don't like complicated can be happy, they need to maintain something and that's it. Arcane on the other hand gets 3 different playstyles changed even more when you activate Power, upping it to 6 different rotation/priority lists.

Most of the complaining came from the "I hate maintenance buffs" and "This isn't shiny enough" departments (and the "wtf I wanted a Summon: Phoenix" like it made any sense whatsoever). That sucks considering the developers feel completely different about this, but their idea was to limit our mobility as much as possible and they succeeded.

Now, I would understand the desire for the talents to be changed in a way that they do something different for all 3 specs (like they do for Arcane). But I really really can't understand the "this sucks because it sucks and we have to cast stupid evocation or stand in a rune or take damage on purpose" position. Why not work around it? If you're all already at level 90, why not spend some time testing it and then reporting your findings? Or even better, wait for Mogu'Shan Vaults to open and let's continue the discussion then.

There is no doubt that you can play Arcane with Invocation. And yes, it very much so changes the playstyle and makes it different and probably in some ways more fun for some people. The issue is that it just isn't as powerful as Rune of Power because of the Synergy with Mastery. With RoP you can cast 1-2 AB's at 6 stacks (This *so far* has been a dps increase) and still fairly quickly regen to full by the time you get around to casting your Barrage. The more time you spend at 6 Stacks, simply put, the higher your overall dps will be, assuming you're close to full mana. Invocation just can't match that playstyle with the way it's currently made.

If it wasn't so much worse than RoP, I would prefer playing with Invocation over it, but it's too much of a difference.

[Ellsian]

Fire and Frost get free damage without worrying about mana anyway. Arcane gets something that's very important to their gameplay. From a "these talents suck" point of view, Fire and Frost players who don't like complicated can be happy, they need to maintain something and that's it. Arcane on the other hand gets 3 different playstyles changed even more when you activate Power, upping it to 6 different rotation/priority lists.

Most of the complaining came from the "I hate maintenance buffs" and "This isn't shiny enough" departments (and the "wtf I wanted a Summon: Phoenix" like it made any sense whatsoever). That sucks considering the developers feel completely different about this, but their idea was to limit our mobility as much as possible and they succeeded.

Now, I would understand the desire for the talents to be changed in a way that they do something different for all 3 specs (like they do for Arcane). But I really really can't understand the "this sucks because it sucks and we have to cast stupid evocation or stand in a rune or take damage on purpose" position. Why not work around it? If you're all already at level 90, why not spend some time testing it and then reporting your findings? Or even better, wait for Mogu'Shan Vaults to open and let's continue the discussion then.

It's not free damage, it's an expected maintenance buff just to upkeep your normal damage with everyone else. On top of that, the talents are horribly restrictive and immobile (except for iw). I played with them all beta and at 90 now, and it's the same annoying mess.

[Gamdwelf]

It's not free damage, it's an expected maintenance buff just to upkeep your normal damage with everyone else. On top of that, the talents are horribly restrictive and immobile (except for iw). I played with them all beta and at 90 now, and it's the same annoying mess.

you are not intended to have them up all the time, to do normal damage.

[Ellsian]

you are not intended to have them up all the time, to do normal damage.

Doesn't change that they're overly burdensome and superficial at best.

[Gamdwelf]

Doesn't change that they're overly burdensome and superficial at best.

eh not really.

[Nigeldruid]

As a non-mage they looked horribly uninteresting and annoying to play with.

The zones could work if they had a longer duration, but refreshing them every minute seems annoying. Putting them down prepull and planning ahead seems fun, but casting them midfight does not.

Invocation is just arcane specific and should have been an arcane glyph of something, not a multi-spec talent.

I hope we see a change to this.

[Sattori]

As arcane, I was crazy psyched for Invocation. I can be lazy and just Spam mostly AB like I did in DS? Sign me up!

I gave it a chance, I really did, I tried different rotations, different gear, everything, but it all came down to the same premise, Invocation is absolutely terrible as Arcane.

Is it because the "lazy" spam staying at 6 stacks and Evocating at 30% is much lower damage?
Trying to decide whether to gamble on using Invocation as Arcane (because that's the only way I'd want to play a mage) or take my Warlock to 90 first.

Did you test with haste reforge, minimizing mastery?

[Imnick]

Why are your only two options "play Mage in the most brainless way possible" or "play a class which is more complicated than a mage in all three specs" ?

[Magic Sausage]

Does anyone agree with me?

Invocation:
Do I really need to cast my 5-8 second evocate every 30-40 seconds. That means every pull in any instance or solo. It just seems like a chore. It does not give me any enjoyment....

Rune of Power:
This is mostly the same as Invocation.... every pull I have put it down.

Basically, it just feels like a huge chore and really killed my enjoyment of mage dps for the past 6 years of having it as my main....

The Mage level 90 talents are a joke. Not fun in the slightest and are just annoying to keep up. You hit the nail on the head by calling them a chore because that's what they are. I don't understand how they managed to stay the way they are with the amount of negative feedback that was given. Kinda like how Savage Roar for Druid's slipped back into their kit. These talents/abilities are not fun and are toxic to gameplay.

[Skadovsk]

you are not intended to have them up all the time, to do normal damage.

yes you are required to have high uptime, mage dps is balanced around them.

[Heartfrost]

Does anyone agree with me?

Invocation:
Do I really need to cast my 5-8 second evocate every 30-40 seconds. That means every pull in any instance or solo. It just seems like a chore. It does not give me any enjoyment....

Rune of Power:
This is mostly the same as Invocation.... every pull I have put it down.

Basically, it just feels like a huge chore and really killed my enjoyment of mage dps for the past 6 years of having it as my main....

err is your mage retarded? it has not been a 8 second cast in years and it is always going to be less then 5 sec do to that thing called haste

[Gamdwelf]

yes you are required to have high uptime, mage dps is balanced around them.

they are balanced at having like 50% uptime or something.

[sef24]

err is your mage retarded? it has not been a 8 second cast in years and it is always going to be less then 5 sec do to that thing called haste

is your mage retarded is my question.... because with my current gear at 90 in at 5.53 seconds. Don't post, you look stupid.

[Reclaimer]

Does anyone agree with me?

Invocation:
Do I really need to cast my 5-8 second evocate every 30-40 seconds. That means every pull in any instance or solo. It just seems like a chore. It does not give me any enjoyment....

Rune of Power:
This is mostly the same as Invocation.... every pull I have put it down.

Basically, it just feels like a huge chore and really killed my enjoyment of mage dps for the past 6 years of having it as my main....

Whats the OP saying....because all i can see is QQQQQQQQ.

[sef24]

Whats the OP saying....because all i can see is QQQQQQQQ.

irony, you are doing the same about mine. QQQQQQQQQ

[Imnick]

I think the main issue here is that people wanted something flashy for their max level ability rather than a maintenance buff.
I honestly believe that the biggest actual problem with this tier is the placement rather than the effect, but cannot think of a solution because none of the other tiers would really impress as 90 talents either, having the bombs there would possibly provoke even more whining and would have broken the class at 85.
If this were not your "ultimate level 90 ability" there would probably be far less uproar! Or at least, considering what other options exist in the current talents for shuffling around, there would be uproar of a different kind.
Blizzard wanted to limit Mage's power to do damage on the move and this is the solution. It's not going to be the end of the world if your buff falls off for a few seconds because you are not balanced around having literally 100% uptime, it is just that maintenance buffs are not particularly "exciting" even if they are delivered in the shiny package of glowing runes on the floor.

To say that all beta response to the talents was negative would frankly just be a lie, and even if it were not Blizzard have never and will never use the forums as a sounding board to make decisions about class balance because that would be an awful idea. You can dislike the talents all that you like but as you have not actually raided with them yet I am not sure you have much room to make objective judgements at the moment, and it is clear that regardless of your pleasure they are clearly meeting Blizzard's design intent. It was not a "mistake" that these were left in and they do not break the class beyond repair or possibility of play, they're just going to take a bit of getting used to.

However, it isn't bad game design to put these in as some people are implying, it's just a limitation.
Limitations are ultimately good for the game and there is no denying that this adds extra complexity to all three rotations for a class that classically has been one of the easiest casters (if not classes) to play in the game, and I say that unashamadely as a Mage who has raided regularly for many years. This fills the purpose of giving mages something extra to do, limiting their power to do damage on the move and also giving them some new toys (even if they aren't ones that they wanted).

Comparisons to other classes are also unwise because almost nobody is 100% happy with their talents as even the most cursory glance at their forums will attest, very few people think they have good choices to make especially for the final tier.