Level 90 Talents... still

[Khargol]

When doing Sha of Anger last week MF was amazing. Between the tanks kiting and people running in 20 different directions, being able to drop large scaled rain of fire was great. Still KC is pretty much worthless so archimonde's will be the talent of choice simply because it doesn't gimp us. Sorta on the same subject is anyone else very disappointed with not only the 90 talents but the fact that demonic gateway will not path up or down hills, even where a warrior or feral druid could charge?

[Lucidious]

I think the 90 tier wouldn't be so bad if it was adjusted a bit. AV should really just lose the active portion and buff the passive to 15% and KJC would actually be fine with just the active portion being the ability. Its all the negatives with the passive that makes it suck so bad. That would actually make the tier a worthy tier imho since MF is already fine and the only talent really worth picking up tbh.

[pokeadott]

I think the 90 tier wouldn't be so bad if it was adjusted a bit. AV should really just lose the active portion and buff the passive to 15% "hell even 10% at this point " and KJC would actually be fine with just the active portion being the ability. Its all the negatives with the passive that makes it suck so bad. That would actually make the tier a worthy tier imho since MF is already fine and the only talent really worth picking up tbh.

This is correct. It also shows how badly they missed the mark with the tier.

The devs obviously see the 'cast while moving with penalties' thing as the primary perk of the talent. They can't see how terrible a self-imposed cast speed penalty anything you move is in practice. Unless you're johnny perfect, it's a pve dps loss in the real world and it's definitively useless in pvp where we already struggle to cast a 1.5sec Fear (forget it if we have mindnumbing/nercotic/CoT on us). The on-use portion of AV is fine as a concept, but it has been so nerfed that the 25% is just a small amount of free dmg output, instead of having any meaningful impact on a fight. if I pop it, I should discourage a Hunter from dumping his focus bar on me for fear of its side-effect. Right now, I pop it and no one changes anything they do.

Personally, I hate MF, but if they added SFury/Howl/Lash to it, it would at least be decent.

[guanqi]

Now that we have more 90's - is anyone happy with this tier (aside from the really gimmicky applications)?

AV is very underwhelming in it's current incarnation - it's not a pvp deterrent anymore, and it's not a fun button to press.

KC is just bad. The run speed slow is w/e, but the cast time penalty is over the top. 50% cast time on my spells? No thanks, I'll just Fel Flame, etc.

MF... Doesn't work on Howl/SFury/Whiplash, so it's killed for pvp. It pulls the universe, so sort of useless for 5mans/soloing. For the 1 in 20 boss fights where tanks have to spread out adds, I guess it's OK, but otherwise?

have to disagree on the MF part of the analysis on PVP. MF and RoF is great for pvp in fishing out stealth targets, the AoE area is absolutely gigantic

[Phoenexis]

have to disagree on the MF part of the analysis on PVP. MF and RoF is great for pvp in fishing out stealth targets, the AoE area is absolutely gigantic

You are aware of what you're saying right? Because it validates what he's been arguing for.

[pokeadott]

You are aware of what you're saying right? Because it validates what he's been arguing for.

Pretty much. If a talent is good because it buffs the unstealthing capabilities of 1 spec that already has good unstealthing capabilities - it's pretty much too niche.

[checking facts]

I like AV cause the passive effect looks pretty when i'm being attacked by 10 mobs at the same time lol

[Shauni]

I like AV cause the passive effect looks pretty when i'm being attacked by 10 mobs at the same time lol

QFT. I like to scream on vent when I pull aggro from the boss. "YOU GUYS ARE FUCKING LAME ! COME ON CAGE YOU'RE COMMING WITH ME ! TASTE MY ARCHIMONDE VENGEANCE SUCKERS !!!!"

But sometimes my teamates doesn't get the reference :'(

[Kathranis]

Just hit 90 and have to say I'm pretty disappointed. I love the changes they made to warlocks and am still enjoying the class a ton, but the level 87/90 additions kinda suck.

Demonic Gateway can't be used for anything interesting due to pathing restrictions. At best you can maybe use it to bypass some trash or obstacles if the ground is roughly level, or in a battleground maybe make a shortcut or screw with enemies through positioning. But then the system for charges means you have to wait in line to use it. It doesn't even start with a charge, dispite the lengthy setup time.

Pandemic should probably just be baked into the default mechanics for DoTs.

Archimonde's Vengeance reflects a pitiful amount of damage, or a slightly less pitiful amount of damage for too short a duration.

Kil'jaeden's cunning lets you move while casting except the restrictions it hits you with makes it seem more likely to just snare you and get you stuck with a long cast if you ever accidentally move or need to move while in the middle of casting.

Mannoroth's Fury will be useful in a few situations (some trash, some PVP, soloing old instances) but generally seems more like a good way to accidentally pull a crapload of adds and get yourself killed.

[Suff]

didnt warlocks get like a huge amount of changes and new abilitys ?
Warriors pretty much got 3 banners ( same spell, does different things )

[wholol]

didnt warlocks get like a huge amount of changes and new abilitys ?
Warriors pretty much got 3 banners ( same spell, does different things )

sadly, warriors at 90 have no equals as a melee class.

in pvp they're broken, most bgs have a ton of warriors it's pretty insane atm.

[Supernex]

WoW? Which have you been playing? I don't recall putting my final point in Improved Immolate or Improved Shadow Bolt feeling particularly awesome... Or maybe that's because I was 3/3 Bane already *Shrug*

I jest. The last point went to make up 5/5 Ruin.

LOL, my bad, I was thinking of talent tree cap, (e.g., Chaos Bolt, Haunt, Meta, etc.), not level cap...haha. Apologies.

[dekarguy]

I'm actually very happy with the 90 row.

The mandate for the 90 row was "useful to increase damage in different situations, but not on single target fight"

In 5.1, KJC's cast time nerf is coming down to 30%. MF is the pick of choice for top end raiders and challenge mode players while AV is the pick for people who want to never think about pushing another button.

Pandemic is actually huge for demonology, as they don't have to stance dance Doom anymore.

Things I am not happy with:

Demonic Portal despawning
Infernal AI
Mind Control AI using Shards/Fury/Embers
Felhunter being top DPS pet
Hellfire
Harvest Life
Flames of Xoroth

Things I am happy with but didn't expect:

Shadowburn while soloing
Destruction's performance in real situations

Things I think are too strong but will probably leave alone for now:

Demonology AoE
Soulburn: Soul Swap
Grimoire of Sacrifice

On the level 90 talents, they seem to be equally useless. AV gives you a dps boost when you are taking damage from a specific enemy, environmental damage doesn't give you anything, and with threat mechanics, unless you use a DA taunt, you won't pull aggro off a tank, not sure how this is supposed to be useful. Even with the upcoming buff to KJC, it is still extremely detrimental. MF helps in PvP, in PvE it will help on bosses, but in challenges/trash it is just going to end up pulling more mobs and causing a wipe.

I'm not sure what a good fix for level 90 is, they are all mostly passive and feel disappointing. Level 90 should feel like a big button we press and become awesome for a while, especially when Archimonde, Kil'jaeden, and Mannoroth are involved. That on top of Demonic Portal being so niche that the only thing it feels useful for is camping a farming spot or traveling to the bank and AH quickly, at least Pandemic is amazing to make up for our new 87 and 90 abilities feeling lackluster.

On Demo side QoL, could you look at the Wild Imps AI? They don't switch targets easily, and will auto-attack PvP targets even if you aren't planning on engaging.

[Xelnath]

A note about Magtheridon's Fury - MF enhanced spells which don't show a reticle (FnB, Seed of Corruption, etc) filter out targets who are not in combat.

So an MF empowered seed shouldn't pull additional packs.

[pokeadott]

A note about Magtheridon's Fury - MF enhanced spells which don't show a reticle (FnB, Seed of Corruption, etc) filter out targets who are not in combat.

So an MF empowered seed shouldn't pull additional packs.

Any comment on all the universally negative feedback on the tier as a whole?

[MastaKwaa]

The mandate for the 90 row was "useful to increase damage in different situations, but not on single target fight"

Was that across all classes or just for warlocks? I can think of several classes level 90 talents that are brokenly awesome and are single target increases... Druids, Shammans, Warriors, etc. [Snarky] Oh, lets just give pally wings to everyone! ..except warlocks, we'll give them pally's ret aura [/Snarky]

I would like to share that my leveling group all hit level 90 (all 5 got server firsts for their class, myself included ) at roughly the same time. After the excitement of our achievements wore down, people started talking about how cool their new talent selections were. Druid got Nature's Vigil, Warrior got Avatar, Rogue got Shuriken Toss, Pally got Light's Hammer, and what did I as a warlock get? A tough decision, but not in a good way I didn't find any of them very appealing. Sure, from a design standpoint, there is a variety of unique utility style options, but none of them were exciting. I felt like every class got some sort of "COOL SHINY NEW" and warlocks got some kind of "meh". KJC cast time increase kills the talent, independent of %. AV and MF are both passive take and forget. And speaking of forget, level 87 talents went the same way in my group : /

That being said, I think as a whole, the new warlock spec revamps are pretty cool! And affliction feels fun/good for the first time ever IMO... largely due to sb-ss and haunt. Please don't ruin sb-ss It's nice not being the class holding back a dungeon speed run for once xD
(If sb-ss does wind up being nerfed, might I suggest just reducing the dots duration at application so it requires sb-ss x2 to reach full duration.. would reduce its power overall but not in short burst situations, while still keeping the execute rotation intact... better than a cd on the ability IMO)

---------- Post added 2012-10-03 at 05:30 PM ----------

Warriors pretty much got 3 banners ( same spell, does different things )

Avatar says "Hi".

[Micke]

A note about Magtheridon's Fury - MF enhanced spells which don't show a reticle (FnB, Seed of Corruption, etc) filter out targets who are not in combat.

So an MF empowered seed shouldn't pull additional packs.

and hellfire?

[Jessicka]

LOL, my bad, I was thinking of talent tree cap, (e.g., Chaos Bolt, Haunt, Meta, etc.), not level cap...haha. Apologies.

It just explains why the 'cool' talents are at 75, which is akin to those end tree talents historically coming in at 15-20 levels before the level cap. In that respect, I think it's absolutely fine for the final level 90 talent to be less good and lower impact; that said, I do feel they set the bar a little low on just how far less good and low impact in terms of how they turned out.

I'm not sure what a good fix for level 90 is, they are all mostly passive and feel disappointing. Level 90 should feel like a big button we press and become awesome for a while, especially when Archimonde, Kil'jaeden, and Mannoroth are involved. That on top of Demonic Portal being so niche that the only thing it feels useful for is camping a farming spot or traveling to the bank and AH quickly, at least Pandemic is amazing to make up for our new 87 and 90 abilities feeling lackluster.

Not sure I agree with this entirely either. If every tier in the tree meant a new button on your action bar, you'd get pretty overwhelmed and as it stands there is certainly scope to do just that.

[Shodan30]

Yeah i came to complain about this too. I picked MF just because i had to see just how screwed up that would be. It was as annoying as i thought it would be. Not only does it pretty much prevent you from using Rof in a questing situation cause the range is just so huge, but since the talent doesnt increase the castable range of the spell, your not really giving yourself much help doing it.

The other choices sound nice but dont really end up that way or feel very epic either.

One thing i have to say ive discovered is the voidwalker (upgraded) is an insanely good tank now. prior to this i stopped using him around level 30 and havent pulled him out since cause he simply could not hold my aggro. But now hes holding aggro as a tank for scenarios for the entire group. I simply cannot pull aggro from him anymore and i love it. even if he dies, i just insta resummon and hes got aggro back quickly.

I wonder how well a 5 man with no tank, 2 warlocks with voids tanking will do in challenges. more dps, faster times., no tank needed

[Chrispotter]

Been playing warlock for 4 years, hardcore raiding for 2 of them, raid leading for 1 and a half of them, the level 90 talents are really really lackluster compared to other classes. Not only is our level 90 Spell, a passive that quite frankly is pretty boring and provides a small dps gain, and gives noobs a safety net for dot refreshing, but our level 90 talents are boring as shit... only fun thing so far is Hellfire + Manaroths Fury.