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  1. #201
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Windthorn View Post
    Those that are saying hunters are fine, no fight really measures aswell as Feng. I just looked at 25 man normal ranks for this fight. There is not hunter represented in the top 200, infact our best entry is from Draco and he's in at 259, 30K+ DPS behind the number 1 ranked player. Rather than QQ I'd like to hear a logical explaination to how this is "fine". A difference of 5-10K I am prepared to take, different classes better at different things but isn't our top hunter ranking vs the top rankings gap a little too big. Its not like its a cleave fight - its plain and simple a single target encounter. We did say here that we'd see how the logs would look at speculating purely from 5 man heroics is wrong. Is this a fact that hunters will scale insanely with gear and be able to make up that huge margin in DPS difference between us and the top classes when we are geared. Scaling is one thing but I cannot see how we can scale that much. Perhaps I am wrong but an explaination would be great.
    Please TAKE A LOOK at the specs that are top 200, EVERYONE is a tank. Even our Paladin tank was 10-15k higher than our best DPS on Feng which was me. Vengeance is stupid and should be brought back to Cata level, since now it's just that people will want the tank that does highest DPS for every HC fight to MT due to DPS requirements.

  2. #202
    guys,i'm watching wol,no surv hunter over any boss in the first 10 positions,only some bm,10 & 25,so i don't think discriminate bm, is the way,yes you don't like bm cause bad pet ai?cause requires an high micromanagement?ok,but you cannot say that surv is better than bm,cause that's not the surv patch.However,playing wow about 5 years,always played only surv / MM every tier,let bm shine and try the spec,some problems have been fixed,but trying it will not cost you anything,the damage is fine,not 1st spec on burst or aoe,but not last too.(sorry for bad english XP)

  3. #203
    People should stop with that feng obession. He is ONE kind of encounter. Yeah, we do ok single dps. Wow. Too bad that most of encounters are not based on single target damage. And the hunter class is not made for anything but single dps ( ok sv got massive AOE dps). It will be back to one slot per raid, or even none. Atleast for seriously raiders, method, fth already filtering out hunters and replace them with rogues or warlocks. Np

    But yeah, hunter is fine.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Windthorn View Post
    There is not hunter represented in the top 200
    From a pure statistics point of view, any Top X List will eventually show the people that just got lucky. A big streak of crits, procs happening at the perfect time, etc. When a certain class tops that list, it normally means that class has a large dependence on RNG, and their average DPS may well be lower than other classes.

    Be very careful when doing comparisons based on the Top X of anything, as you're specifically asking for a set of outlying data.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiav View Post
    People should stop with that feng obession. He is ONE kind of encounter. Yeah, we do ok single dps. Wow. Too bad that most of encounters are not based on single target damage. And the hunter class is not made for anything but single dps ( ok sv got massive AOE dps). It will be back to one slot per raid, or even none. Atleast for seriously raiders, method, fth already filtering out hunters and replace them with rogues or warlocks. Np

    But yeah, hunter is fine.
    Ranged > Melee any day for Feng, ranged can deal with moving much better than melee(Ranged 95-100% DPS vs. Melee 0% DPS) when they have to move out with like a debuff on Feng P3.

    And from what I see, if you are benching Hunters for serious raiding, you are doing it wrong, Hunters are the most mobile class and are top DPS with (now in Mists) great burst capabilities.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    Ranged > Melee any day for Feng, ranged can deal with moving much better than melee(Ranged 95-100% DPS vs. Melee 0% DPS) when they have to move out with like a debuff on Feng P3.

    And from what I see, if you are benching Hunters for serious raiding, you are doing it wrong, Hunters are the most mobile class and are top DPS with (now in Mists) great burst capabilities.
    Sorry, hunter dps is as far away from top as it can only go

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiav View Post
    Sorry, hunter dps is as far away from top as it can only go
    How come Paragon has 2 Hunters ready for raiding then? and they are 10m. Surely if Hunters are as bad as you make them out to be, they wouldn't be using them, instead they would use warlocks/mages/ele shamans by your logic? Stop looking at Simcraft or other DPS sims, they are wrong

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    How come Paragon has 2 Hunters ready for raiding then? and they are 10m. Surely if Hunters are as bad as you make them out to be, they wouldn't be using them, instead they would use warlocks/mages/ele shamans by your logic? Stop looking at Simcraft or other DPS sims, they are wrong
    Because its first content, and no one cares for normal modes. I dont look or care at simcraft. You will see in about 2-3 weeks heroic progress how many hunter slots the top guilds will have. It will be one or none. No to mention paragon is 10 man.....

    If you want to play top dps you should go WL. Because they provide top dps.

    A top dps class should contribute dps in all kind of encounters. WL does that. Hunter only do dps in single target based encounters, there is no top dps for hunters in several encounters. Hunters do ok-good dps in 2/6 vault encounters. If thats top dps for you, ok.

    A top dps class should be able to adept for several encounters, like it is the case for mages or warlocks. That is a top dps class. Hunter class doesn't even provide more single target dps than any other classes, and totally fall behind in multi target encounter.
    Last edited by Jiav; 2012-10-05 at 11:36 AM.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiav View Post
    People should stop with that feng obession. He is ONE kind of encounter. Yeah, we do ok single dps. Wow. Too bad that most of encounters are not based on single target damage. And the hunter class is not made for anything but single dps ( ok sv got massive AOE dps). It will be back to one slot per raid, or even none. Atleast for seriously raiders, method, fth already filtering out hunters and replace them with rogues or warlocks. Np

    But yeah, hunter is fine.
    Just wondering, have you like, DONE the encounters?
    Quilens are 2-target cleave.
    Feng is Singletarget.
    Spiritbinder is singletarget (adds in shadow realm are favored by heavy burst AOE when they spawn closely together, which hunters *also* has).
    Four Kings are singletarget.
    Elegon is singletarget.
    Will of the Emperor is *heavy* aoe (6 targets) and singletarget (and as said, hunters have the AOE part down).

    So you're complaining about the first, and easiest, of the bosses in the raid instance that's been released so far ?
    And I don't get how you think Method's filtering out their hunters. They've had 2 hunters on every of their first kills. So has FTH. With 11 classes, each having 1 dps spec (and things like druids and shamans having 2 distinctively different specs), and space for 17 dps, having 2 of them as hunters doesn't seem badly represented at all in top guilds, does it ;P?
    The only thing I can see that's REALLY broken right now, would be ret pallies. They're in for a buff. Ele shamans are in for a nerf, and so are healing monks. Apart from that, we're quite allright on the balance, really.

  10. #210
    I can't speak from a lot of experience since my highest Hunter is Lvl 65, but I've been doing several heroics and I'm seeing Hunters topping the DPS Charts most of the time. But these are skilled Hunters that know the class VERY well.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Just wondering, have you like, DONE the encounters?
    Quilens are 2-target cleave.
    Feng is Singletarget.
    Spiritbinder is singletarget (adds in shadow realm are favored by heavy burst AOE when they spawn closely together, which hunters *also* has).
    Four Kings are singletarget.
    Elegon is singletarget.
    Will of the Emperor is *heavy* aoe (6 targets) and singletarget (and as said, hunters have the AOE part down).

    So you're complaining about the first, and easiest, of the bosses in the raid instance that's been released so far ?
    And I don't get how you think Method's filtering out their hunters. They've had 2 hunters on every of their first kills. So has FTH. With 11 classes, each having 1 dps spec (and things like druids and shamans having 2 distinctively different specs), and space for 17 dps, having 2 of them as hunters doesn't seem badly represented at all in top guilds, does it ;P?
    The only thing I can see that's REALLY broken right now, would be ret pallies. They're in for a buff. Ele shamans are in for a nerf, and so are healing monks. Apart from that, we're quite allright on the balance, really.
    You know that each method/fth member got about 3 raid ready chars ? And i say it again, no one cares for normal mode. Just watch and see that will happen in heroic

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiav View Post
    You know that each method/fth member got about 3 raid ready chars ? And i say it again, no one cares for normal mode. Just watch and see that will happen in heroic
    Im not sure what that matters? If they attended the *first* kill of the guild, that means they had 2 hunters in the same raid. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing, and you're looking stupid for it Jiav. Over the past ten pages you've been proven wrong in everything you've said - hunters are doing FINE on DPS. We're not overpowered, so we don't just STOMP other classes on the dps. But we're not doing badly, unless you, as a player, are failing on something. And good players are competive with all other classes.
    So, unless you bring us some numbers that can, somehow, disprove that "good" hunters are handling raids just fine right now, and prove that in fact we ARE doing badly, apart from your constant "BUT WE CAN'T CLEAVE!", then please, stop it. Right now you're just trolling, trying to provoke responses by posting useless comments that has no base in reality. Feel free to show us how badly we're doing next week, but untill then, unless you get some hard data that proves we're doing bad (which would mean proving I've broken the game, or that every other class are underperforming), you've got nothing left to say here.

  13. #213
    I've noticed that with my hunter too, my damage has gone down considerably.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Im not sure what that matters? If they attended the *first* kill of the guild, that means they had 2 hunters in the same raid. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing, and you're looking stupid for it Jiav. Over the past ten pages you've been proven wrong in everything you've said - hunters are doing FINE on DPS. We're not overpowered, so we don't just STOMP other classes on the dps. But we're not doing badly, unless you, as a player, are failing on something. And good players are competive with all other classes.
    So, unless you bring us some numbers that can, somehow, disprove that "good" hunters are handling raids just fine right now, and prove that in fact we ARE doing badly, apart from your constant "BUT WE CAN'T CLEAVE!", then please, stop it. Right now you're just trolling, trying to provoke responses by posting useless comments that has no base in reality. Feel free to show us how badly we're doing next week, but untill then, unless you get some hard data that proves we're doing bad (which would mean proving I've broken the game, or that every other class are underperforming), you've got nothing left to say here.
    Ye, ok. Glad you posted that hard evidence you re talking about. Not

    Brb in 1-2 weeks. laterz

  15. #215
    I am Murloc! Anjerith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Im not sure what that matters? If they attended the *first* kill of the guild, that means they had 2 hunters in the same raid. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing, and you're looking stupid for it Jiav. Over the past ten pages you've been proven wrong in everything you've said - hunters are doing FINE on DPS. We're not overpowered, so we don't just STOMP other classes on the dps. But we're not doing badly, unless you, as a player, are failing on something. And good players are competive with all other classes.
    So, unless you bring us some numbers that can, somehow, disprove that "good" hunters are handling raids just fine right now, and prove that in fact we ARE doing badly, apart from your constant "BUT WE CAN'T CLEAVE!", then please, stop it. Right now you're just trolling, trying to provoke responses by posting useless comments that has no base in reality. Feel free to show us how badly we're doing next week, but untill then, unless you get some hard data that proves we're doing bad (which would mean proving I've broken the game, or that every other class are underperforming), you've got nothing left to say here.
    For the record I just want to state that we have Beast Cleave, Multi-Shot, Glaive and Barrage. All of which fulfill the role of a cleave attack. Hell you could spam Beast Cleave as often as you can MS.

    As for hard data that the guy you are talking to is looking for, there isn't really any. The fact is that Hunters do fine at present but not wonderfully so. If you play a Hunter well, you do well. If your learning the class or coping with the class changes, you won't do so well. That is really all there is to it. No hard data needed on it.
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Gold and the 'need' for it in-game is easily one of the most overblown mindsets in this community.

  16. #216
    Just ignore draco hunters aren't in a good place right now there damage is lacking compared to other classes and there rotations are awful

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eironn View Post
    Just ignore draco hunters aren't in a good place right now there damage is lacking compared to other classes and there rotations are awful
    How the hell have I been top DPS on Stone Guards and Feng then? And was on Spirit Realm duty on Gara'jal. Also on every attempt on Spirit kings I was top. We run with 3 Mages, 2 Warlocks and a Shaman in the DPS side. They are by no means bad, good hunters will be good, mediocre will be worse since BM requires good skill.

    And the game isn't balanced on 463 iLvl, it's balanced on Heroic raiding gear(as it has always been). Right now WoL is full of RNG logs, since everyone has logged themselves only once and nobody at the moment has any intention of getting "buff stacked" to get that WoL rank without BiS gear.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    *cough* people using coins on normal mode loot are silly. Save it for your heroic boss kills so you can get *proper* gear .

    In any case, I can only say that the people who are having issues competing with anything but frost DK's and Elemental Shamans in overall damage in dungeons, are having L2P issues. Singletarget, we're upper-middle, atleast as survival (no, I'm not going to bother with the atrocity that is BM). I can't keep up with our resident warlock, but anything else in equal gear I can easily keep up with.
    Consider the fact that if you're getting smashed, it may be because that particular person has a better weapon, or simply alot better gear (start of expansions makes you scale well, and the fact is that just 2-3 average item levels SHOULD send a "bad" class up over a "good" class).
    Currently missing 4 more heroic items, at 458 average lvl (fuck you, 440 back, 442 chest, 450 boots and legs).


    Unless something has changed you cap at 10 and plenty of ppl will hit that well before they step foot in a heroic raid much less kill bosses.
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  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Eironn View Post
    Just ignore draco hunters aren't in a good place right now there damage is lacking compared to other classes and there rotations are awful
    Thats only because you can't play. I mean, are you seriously going to tell me that people should believe you when you pull 53K dps on Feng, and says hunters are in a bad spot, when the highest of your class/spec (BM) in your raid setting (10 man) is at 66.5K? Never mind the fact that you insist on being BM when the highest hunter-singletarget dps yet has been recorded in surv ^_^.

    But let's take a look at Feng 10 man, for each class, just to see:
    DK - 67.5K.
    Boomkin - 62.3K.
    Feral - 69.9K.
    Hunter - 66.5K.
    Mage - 67.4K.
    Monk - 62.6K.
    Ret - 61.7K.
    Spriest - 57K.
    Rogue - 65.4K.
    Ele Shaman - 64.7K.
    Enh Shaman - 63.5K.
    Warlock - 67.6K.
    Warrior - 64.4K.
    Counting ele shamans, enh shamans, feral druids, and boomkins as "different" specs, due to different gear and concepts.

    So, hunters have been beat by 4 specs of 13, and beats 8 specs out of 13. We're slightly above average. Are you expecting to get buffed up from average to high, just because you're a hunter? Someone HAS to be average.
    Not only that, the difference between hunters and top end (feral druid) is less than 5%. The difference between hunters and the lowest (shadow priest) is 14.3%. So we're 14% from the bottom, and 5% from the top. The median is 63.5K dps (right between the top and the bottom). The average DPS for each spec should be 64.6K.
    We're above the median, we're above the average, we're the most mobile class, and we have the most potent AOE.
    You're doing bad, because you're a worse player than the one's you are up against.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrven View Post
    Unless something has changed you cap at 10 and plenty of ppl will hit that well before they step foot in a heroic raid much less kill bosses.
    Normal modes are easily cleared this week (we had: 2 wipes on quilens, 10 on feng, 2 on Spiritdoctorthingie, 4 on the four kings, 7 on elegon, and 5 on the emperor's will. It took us two evenings without any PTR experience to clear it), so most people should have access to heroic modes next week. With 9 coins .
    Last edited by Dracodraco; 2012-10-05 at 12:49 PM.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Thats only because you can't play. I mean, are you seriously going to tell me that people should believe you when you pull 53K dps on Feng, and says hunters are in a bad spot, when the highest of your class/spec (BM) in your raid setting (10 man) is at 66.5K? Never mind the fact that you insist on being BM when the highest hunter-singletarget dps yet has been recorded in surv ^_^.

    But let's take a look at Feng 10 man, for each class, just to see:
    DK - 67.5K.
    Boomkin - 62.3K.
    Feral - 69.9K.
    Hunter - 66.5K.
    Mage - 67.4K.
    Monk - 62.6K.
    Ret - 61.7K.
    Spriest - 57K.
    Rogue - 65.4K.
    Ele Shaman - 64.7K.
    Enh Shaman - 63.5K.
    Warlock - 67.6K.
    Warrior - 64.4K.
    Counting ele shamans, enh shamans, feral druids, and boomkins as "different" specs, due to different gear and concepts.

    So, hunters have been beat by 4 specs of 13, and beats 8 specs out of 13. We're slightly above average. Are you expecting to get buffed up from average to high, just because you're a hunter? Someone HAS to be average.
    Not only that, the difference between hunters and top end (feral druid) is less than 5%. The difference between hunters and the lowest (shadow priest) is 14.3%. So we're 14% from the bottom, and 5% from the top. The median is 63.5K dps (right between the top and the bottom). The average DPS for each spec should be 64.6K.
    We're above the median, we're above the average, we're the most mobile class, and we have the most potent AOE.
    You're doing bad, because you're a worse player than the one's you are up against.




    Normal modes are easily cleared this week (we had: 2 wipes on quilens, 10 on feng, 2 on Spiritdoctorthingie, 4 on the four kings, 7 on elegon, and 5 on the emperor's will. It took us two evenings without any PTR experience to clear it), so most people should have access to heroic modes next week. With 9 coins .
    If by most ppl you mean about 4% of the player base then yeah most will. Wowprogress wont load up for some reason but on guildox only 80 guilds world wide have cleared in 10 or 25. Just undeer 3 million MoP accounts right now. You don't even have to do math to realize that is way the hell off from most, very little should be the phrase being used.

    Wowprogress finally loaded up they have it at 146 guilds world wide in a mix of 10 and 25 that is still a drop in the bucket nothing more.
    Last edited by Tyrven; 2012-10-05 at 01:14 PM.
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