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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    What does the armory link matter? I do 60-70K consistently through dungeons now because I got my hands on a 483 Black-market weapon, and have every slot but my 440 cloak at 463 - but the thing we're comparing here is *equally skilled* and *equally geared* people. Of course I'll blow any other class in 450 average out of the water, but that doesn't mean that it is not true that I was competive, and even more than competive, at 450. And you can't compare yourself to random people you find in a pug - you don't know if they're just better than you, or have better gear (it's hard to see by a glance, need to armory them and take a good look). Even two item levels difference can be thousands of attack/spellpower, which has a significant impact on your dps.
    With a 483 weapon you're pulling consistently less dps than locks and mages in 463 gear which are around 65k+ in ilvl ~455. That should tell you something... Other folks' 50-60k in ~455 ilvl gear is where it should be for hunters but is still below par for competitive dps.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-01 at 05:37 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kezzik View Post
    So you not only used blood lust, but you're saying you did 86k, of course you did with that weapon you bought.
    In a 20 second fight...
    Last edited by Flaks; 2012-10-01 at 05:37 AM.
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  2. #62
    I started this thread because im 99% sure our damage is awful

    So far all i have seen is epeen flexing and rubbish talk if you think our dps is fine show some logs or proof don't just say oh hey your all bad because our damage is fine

    I've played my hunter long enough and competed against top ranking players on world of logs to know when something isn't right


    So log some dungeons against decent players in full heroic gear or be quiet and keep out of the discussion because everything you've said is worthless without backing it up i can sit here and say yeah i do 90k dps easy in dungeons but it holds no value

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Eironn View Post
    I started this thread because im 99% sure our damage is awful

    So far all i have seen is epeen flexing and rubbish talk if you think our dps is fine show some logs or proof don't just say oh hey your all bad because our damage is fine

    I've played my hunter long enough and competed against top ranking players on world of logs to know when something isn't right


    So log some dungeons against decent players in full heroic gear or be quiet and keep out of the discussion because everything you've said is worthless without backing it up i can sit here and say yeah i do 90k dps easy in dungeons but it holds no value
    I have to agree with this. I see a lot of over inflated epeen, but no solid advice as to how we could improve.
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    In other words, he's worried about how sharp your bayonet is when you are firing RPG's.

  4. #64
    You can start to improve when you start to check your talents, skills and the symbiosis between them. Than think about a rotation or priority and then start to test like any other tried. Why do you expect to come here, blame everyone who don't hassle playing Hunter only because you want that other teach you your class/specc. Are we that low in social behavior in these days?
    To get help, you should start to point out what you are doing now, where do you see problems and after that you can quitly ask for corrections. But this bold manner to call other posers or epeeing because nobody explains you where you do wrong is just ignorance compared with bad manners.

    When you check up the 100+pages long thread about Hunter-Beta thread you would know all facts, long discussions about how to play and how Hunters perform in raidsituations. There are even logs you can look on normal mode and hc mode bosses. And these logs are really usefull because most of the people there wear the provided PVP gear sets. Thus all have equal gear throughout the board. In most of these logs you will find Hunter in the top 5 spots!

    And when we talking about balancing - it is balanced when the lowest spec is 5% below the average of all. That could even mean that mages and locks are 8% above average as long as all other doing lower (would be a total differance of 13%). Blizzard trys to shorten these gap as good as they can, but everyone who plays more than one class could imagine how hard this would be.


    TL:DR: If you want help, try to ask politly with a statement what to you do know. After all Hunters do fine - they may are not guaranteed number one, but they are top 5 if you know how to play them. And with all the new cds, readiness for all and the new talents there are many things one can screw up!


    ps:all numbers concerning balance are taken from my mind. Reachable DPS positions are know-how
    Last edited by Keren; 2012-10-01 at 06:27 AM. Reason: clear numbers up

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  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Eironn View Post
    I started this thread because im 99% sure our damage is awful

    So far all i have seen is epeen flexing and rubbish talk if you think our dps is fine show some logs or proof don't just say oh hey your all bad because our damage is fine

    I've played my hunter long enough and competed against top ranking players on world of logs to know when something isn't right

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandwrong View Post
    I have to agree with this. I see a lot of over inflated epeen, but no solid advice as to how we could improve.
    So log some dungeons against decent players in full heroic gear or be quiet and keep out of the discussion because everything you've said is worthless without backing it up i can sit here and say yeah i do 90k dps easy in dungeons but it holds no value
    Sure, I'm up for that challenge - find me two players to compete with on EU horde side, and they can PM me for my real ID. We'll do a few randoms, and see who comes out on top . I'm not going to try and force my guildies into doing useless heroics (we're busy clearing glory's and silver challenges for mounts during the "downtime"), but for the sake of argument, I'll humor you. So find me 2x people that you think would completly stomp a hunter, and we'll take it from there. Ill even use my 463 weapon so I'm at 463 Ilvl if you can't find anyone at 465+ (Ilvl without the epic wep I bought).

    That being said, you haven't done anything even remotely near what you're claiming (top ranking on WOL, playing high end) for the past two years. Alot has changed since the mindless "spin to win" of TBC, and "hit aimed/chim shot on CD" of WOTLK.) As far as I can see (http://raidbots.com/epeenbot/us/frostmourne/eironn/) you dabbled with some 10 man heroic in firelands, where you struggled to get past the 60th percentile (which is slightly above the "median").
    Remember, time played does not equal skill. And considering how much the game has changed, having done well in vanilla/TBC/WOTLK is only good on paper - it's not going to do you any good now. You can't live on how you did in the past, and it's clear that you're having issues now.
    Heck, you've not even enchanted, nor are you using the, essentially free, JC gem for an extra 160 agil. You've forgot to reforge a ring, too.
    I've literally got 2.8K agility more than you. About a thousand of that is from my bonuses/enchants.

    But let me ask you this - you find the fact that you have alot of hunters comming in here, claiming they do great DPS in heroics and aren't seeing the issue you're talking about, completly unrelated to the topic? So the only related posts would be the ones that backs up YOUR claims? Even if you happen to be wrong?
    Or could it be that you just don't want to face the truth, that some people aren't seeing the same issues as you?


    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    With a 483 weapon you're pulling consistently less dps than locks and mages in 463 gear which are around 65k+ in ilvl ~455. That should tell you something... Other folks' 50-60k in ~455 ilvl gear is where it should be for hunters but is still below par for competitive dps.
    That might very well be possible, but I just haven't found these famed locks and mages that pulls 65k+ in 463 gear. Feel free to tell any of them to hit me up, and we'll do some cross realm dungeons to compare.
    Last edited by Dracodraco; 2012-10-01 at 08:07 AM.

  6. #66
    BM AOE is better than some of you give it credit for, methinks. Launch Explosive trap > BW > Lynx Rush > Multishot (to proc Beast Cleave) > Barrage > MS does a ton of it. I'm 452 ilevel with a 463 weapon and I've pulled 75-80k on some AOE pulls using this priority.

    One reason hunter dps might seem low IMO is that fights seem especially punishing on ranged, just seems like melee has it far easier in 5mans on many fights. Moving around = obviously a loss of dps. On fights where I can just burn, I am pretty happy with my dps. Its not the astronomical leap I would have expected from 85-90 but its a pretty big jump under ideal playing circumstances.

  7. #67
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    BM AOE is better than some of you give it credit for, methinks. Launch Explosive trap > BW > Lynx Rush > Multishot (to proc Beast Cleave) > Barrage > MS does a ton of it. I'm 452 ilevel with a 463 weapon and I've pulled 75-80k on some AOE pulls using this priority.

    One reason hunter dps might seem low IMO is that fights seem especially punishing on ranged, just seems like melee has it far easier in 5mans on many fights. Moving around = obviously a loss of dps. On fights where I can just burn, I am pretty happy with my dps. Its not the astronomical leap I would have expected from 85-90 but its a pretty big jump under ideal playing circumstances.
    460 iLvl with 463 weapon, doing over 120k on most AoE packs as SV. I will probably stay as Survival even in raids, I like the spec, it feels good

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    460 iLvl with 463 weapon, doing over 120k on most AoE packs as SV. I will probably stay as Survival even in raids, I like the spec, it feels good
    Oh look, someone with a higher ilevel bragging about doing more dps than me.

    /shrug

    I prefer BM and will happily stick with it as I gear up. I like the additional complexity that came with Mists and the concept of having a pet that isn't useless garbage. And if BM falls behind at equal gear levels (which is when it matters) then it'll get buffed. They've already said they want it to be competitive again, and even designed raid encounters with KC in mind.

  9. #69
    Have to agree with Draco on BM, its very much a whack the mole spec and even though burst is good I prefer the utility of Survival much more. Was Survival back in wrath - and most of Cata, through firelands etc... I think rather than flame the hunters that are performing well, I'd like to thank Draco for posting his priority opener. I guess its muscle memory but I just always have a problem of casting SrS first probably because I've been doing it for over 2-3 years. I'm aware its alot lower on the list of things that should be casted, Rogerbrown of method has a guide up also. He's got a similiar priority set up, although I think he casts BA first, presumably to get LnL proc chances ticking over. People with low damage need to look at the rotation as its changed ALOT since Cata. Moving from Wrath to Cata was extremely smooth in terms of rotations as CoS extended our SrS and in essence made the rotation easier - made ven easier with AS being removed from LnL procs later on and now its swung around into being alot more complex and really is a class which seperates the good hunters from the bad. Getting the priority wrong punishes our DPS quite alot, especially as BM I've noticed. I also wonder how MM is coming along, not touched it since early Cata when it was lolz AiS spam.

  10. #70
    On the subject of comparative DPS, I think the point is being missed. The defense of Hunter's DPS is that "70k-ish is good single target dps" (im pulling about 65k single target but am a couple pieces away from full 463)...while in my 5 man groups, warriors, warlocks, and shamans are pulling 80k with only half 463. So even if we're pulling 70-80k in full 463....that's nothing compared to what other DPS are doing currently. But, I also agree we can't be too hasty on crying, wait until people are in 1st tier raid gear, and see how everyone scales.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by araistlinx View Post
    But, I also agree we can't be too hasty on crying, wait until people are in 1st tier raid gear, and see how everyone scales.
    especially in fights longer than 1-3 minutes ^^

  12. #72
    Where are people seeing these 80k+ DPS numbers from? Are we talking 60 second fights with Heroism? Any class can do that, honestly.

    If we're talking a normal 3-5 min fight then I have yet to see ANY spec do over 70k single target. Even OP Frost DKs can't hit those numbers in 463.

  13. #73
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    I have no problems keeping up with my guildies, but I'm only a realm first hunter on a small realm, and not anywhere near Draco and Cleaving. AoE trash packs are an anomaly, our GM who rerolled monk just spams spinning crane kick whereas I have to set up a BW/LR/MS beast cleave/lined up glaive toss just to compare, and if that trash lives longer than 10s, GG. I suspect if I went SV I'd do even more on these anomaly pulls.

    I'd be really interested to hear of people's ideas of single target, low movement BM vs. SV. I've got the BM rotation sorted as much as I can and I do well on single target, even with some movement, as KC has that convenient large-range thing. God forbid there's a fucking step in the encounter, though, cause then my pet freaks out. That last boss in Siege = totally useless as BM up on the weak spot, I switch to SV for that fight.

    I'm tempted to go back to the comforts of SV, tbh. Pet pathing is horrific.

  14. #74
    on longer fights (where the other 2 dps aren't so hot) around 4-5 minute mark im sustaining 55k+ dps and have yet to be topped on meters since i got around 455ish ilevel.

    Survival aoe is stupid and broken, it shouldn't be that easy to produce those kinds of numbers.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Sure, I'm up for that challenge - find me two players to compete with on EU horde side, and they can PM me for my real ID. We'll do a few randoms, and see who comes out on top . I'm not going to try and force my guildies into doing useless heroics (we're busy clearing glory's and silver challenges for mounts during the "downtime"), but for the sake of argument, I'll humor you. So find me 2x people that you think would completly stomp a hunter, and we'll take it from there. Ill even use my 463 weapon so I'm at 463 Ilvl if you can't find anyone at 465+ (Ilvl without the epic wep I bought).

    That being said, you haven't done anything even remotely near what you're claiming (top ranking on WOL, playing high end) for the past two years. Alot has changed since the mindless "spin to win" of TBC, and "hit aimed/chim shot on CD" of WOTLK.) As far as I can see (http://raidbots.com/epeenbot/us/frostmourne/eironn/) you dabbled with some 10 man heroic in firelands, where you struggled to get past the 60th percentile (which is slightly above the "median").
    Remember, time played does not equal skill. And considering how much the game has changed, having done well in vanilla/TBC/WOTLK is only good on paper - it's not going to do you any good now. You can't live on how you did in the past, and it's clear that you're having issues now.
    Heck, you've not even enchanted, nor are you using the, essentially free, JC gem for an extra 160 agil. You've forgot to reforge a ring, too.
    I've literally got 2.8K agility more than you. About a thousand of that is from my bonuses/enchants.

    But let me ask you this - you find the fact that you have alot of hunters comming in here, claiming they do great DPS in heroics and aren't seeing the issue you're talking about, completly unrelated to the topic? So the only related posts would be the ones that backs up YOUR claims? Even if you happen to be wrong?
    Or could it be that you just don't want to face the truth, that some people aren't seeing the same issues as you?



    That might very well be possible, but I just haven't found these famed locks and mages that pulls 65k+ in 463 gear. Feel free to tell any of them to hit me up, and we'll do some cross realm dungeons to compare.

    So they add a few more keys in and all of a sudden you think your a god and anyone else who played previously just can't cope with new design lol ... im not even gonna bother discussing further with you

    Still no logs of non aoe 80k+ dps would love to see it though

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Eironn View Post
    So they add a few more keys in and all of a sudden you think your a god and anyone else who played previously just can't cope with new design lol ... im not even gonna bother discussing further with you

    Still no logs of non aoe 80k+ dps would love to see it though
    No disrespect, but I find it ironic that you, the OP is the one creating the larger waves here. Sure you were looked up and some of your past data has been presented. But the person you are dismissing here, is the one actually supplying the most relevant, tested and accurate information you are looking for regarding your original post. (weather it's presentation and format you find confronting or off putting is by the by)

    I have, excluding some of the wave making, really enjoyed the information in this thread so far, sure it's passionate, but it informative, imo.

  17. #77
    80k on a 20 second fight is more than doable especially with a 483 weapon..

  18. #78
    Dreadlord Supakaiser's Avatar
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    Finally on track with both SV and BM huntering now. I'm pulling solid numbers in 5 mans and feel comfortable again. Persistence and practice.

  19. #79
    My brother who is iL461 easily bursts to 100k most fights and steadys out on the long end at 55k-60k as BM without lust but with Skull banner. I have yet to see anyone beat him, and the more gear I gather on my warrior I can close the gap but not ahead yet. We have run with some pretty good (better then average) and geared players and they seem to top out around the same. Tanks don't come close on single target.

    To the people saying the dungeons punish range, you are retarded. Range have it much easier then melee on about 75% of the fights. I'm glad I have charge / heroic leap just to stay on / out of fire etc while range stays in the back spammin.

  20. #80
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tekoix View Post
    My brother who is iL461 easily bursts to 100k most fights and steadys out on the long end at 55k-60k as BM without lust but with Skull banner. I have yet to see anyone beat him, and the more gear I gather on my warrior I can close the gap but not ahead yet. We have run with some pretty good (better then average) and geared players and they seem to top out around the same. Tanks don't come close on single target.

    To the people saying the dungeons punish range, you are retarded. Range have it much easier then melee on about 75% of the fights. I'm glad I have charge / heroic leap just to stay on / out of fire etc while range stays in the back spammin.
    Heroics aren't a viable way of telling DPS, most fights last 20-40 seconds these days in a guild group which is just about most classes CD time, so you are basically comparing who has the strongest CDs(Ele Shamans, Fury Warrior have sick CDs atm). Wait until raids and fights that last over 6 minutes, then we can talk about balance.

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