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  1. #141
    Warchief Shootandkill's Avatar
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    I think some of the people in the thread that are complaining about hunter dps are new 90s with 440 gear. When I first hit 90, I was doing less damage than I was doing when I was 85, but now I'm pulling 70k dps easy on any straight up heroic fight with a 461 ilvl. Are we bad? No. Could we use a buff? Yes, I think our AOE dps is severely lacking, and I'd like a little more dps outside of burst/bestial wrath phases. Other than that, we're fine.
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  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by wannab1st View Post
    I will be the first to admit that I am personally not amazing at this game, so my word probably shouldn't be taken too seriously. I'm only at 456 ilvl and my GM didn't let me start raiding this week, so my reference is only from 5 mans. I switched to BM and use SV off spec since 5.0.4 hit before MOP. Back in H DS my damage was actually much better than it had been and I had no trouble topping meters in a 25 man raid. Now, however, I am too having a lot of trouble keeping up. The burst damage seems to be pretty fine and actually lasts a good amount of the time in the 5 man fights, which definitely averages out okay in the end. AOE and regular damage, however, is laughably bad. I've been wondering if it is because most of the lower level (non-epic) gear don't have expertise on it and we have to reforge out of some of our 'I want to do more damage now pew pew' stats? I race changed to draenei to get the 1% hit, and even that helped a little bit with the damage normalization. Just a thought?
    You would have been better off changing to Worgen DPS wise. 1%crit is worth more than 1% hit, however 1 crit rating is worth less than 1 hit rating.

    From EJ
    "One question I often receive is why Draenei and Dwarves are rated lower than Worgen when crit is a lower rated stat than hit or expertise. The reason is that the stat ranks are per point of a stat not per percentage. Since different stats can require dissimilar rating total per percentage, stat percentage priority may not match single stat rating priorities. That is the case here and in other similar situations. 1 hit rating (up to the cap) is generally better than 1 crit rating. However, since it takes only about 340 hit rating for 1% hit but about 600 crit rating for 1% crit, the difference in the two racials is actually 600 crit rating versus 340 hit rating. This requires hit rating to be 1.76 times better than crit rating over that whole range of stat ratings. Furthermore, when adding in the benefit of reforging and assuming you can reforge the full benefit of the racials, 600 reforge points is worth more than 340, especially considering that the 600 crit can become 340 hit and 260 crit, making it as good as the Draenei and Dwarf racials, plus some."

    There's the longer explanation

  3. #143
    It must be just you guys, yesterday i was watchin Nihilum stream and there was 2 hunters in top 3 damage done/DPS

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiav View Post
    I agree. Single DPS is fine and never was the issue.

    Hunter problem is spread dps. As soon as there are 2 targets in place we suffer extremly hard. No other dps class has this problem. It pretty much shuts down the entire encounter in terms of dps for us.

    Hunter is a pure dps class, you should think that atleast ONE out of THREE specs should be able deal to properly with a 2-3 target based encounter. But they all balance around single dps and basically counter each other out.

    Rogues have combat spec for that. Mages were never really bad at two target dpsing, [...].

    Our ok - good single dps doesn't justify such a huge dps drop in such an encounter.

    Not to mention your hunter draco is very well geared, you prolly also outgeared lots of dds in your raid and still didnt got #1.
    There's quite a few other specs that does not have "good" cleave damage, or atleast, are on the same level as hunter. Enh shammies and feral druids springs immidiatelly to mind (they can't respec because they do not have the gear for their spellcaster specs, obviously).
    And the fact that I didn't get #1 on that fight doesn't mean hunters are in a bad place - are you seriously sitting there, telling me that because I was only number 3 worldwide out of all DPS specs on what is probably the biggest patchwerk fight of this tier, hunters aren't doing good enough to compete? Should I have crushed everything beneath me before you'd deem us good enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marxman View Post
    The fact that you aren't #1 DPS with a 483 bow proves that Survival is slightly lacking for single target. That's what, an 6-8k DPS increase over 463 weapons? Yea...

    Femaledwarf is your friend. Changing my gun to a 463 drops me by 3K (this is assuming I can reforge back into ~500-600 crit if I used the bow that gives 600 hit rating). You're giving this gun way more credit than it deserves .
    If you notice, this drops me to 471 item level, and I'm still 3K ahead of every BM hunter, and 5K ahead of every surv hunter on that fight (as of when I looked yesterday - site is down now, so it is entirely possible some other hunters ranked higher).

    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    when people say draco is outgearing his guild mates, do we know this for a fact or are you just assuming?
    Assuming - if I'm overgearing, that'll be by one or two item levels in most cases, except for our usual herd of "slackers". People like Rayanne, Misto, Kayman, Znie etc should be pretty close to my item level. After all, the only two items I've got that anyone has an excuse for NOT having, is my belt and my gun - however, so far, I've recieved no loot from Galleon or Sha, which most of our raiders has ;_;.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eironn View Post
    Friend of mine last night got #1 as bm with 62k dps in 25 man but then you have all these people claiming they do 20k more than that on fights which is crazy

    I my self apparently a bad player says mr draco ranked 7th on 3 different bosses with dps between 50-55k obviously it doesen't mean shit because raid has just been released and world of logs seems to be down atm so i haven't been able to see others dps but i still don't think hunters are in a good spot and being forced to only play bm to be remotely competitive is stupid
    So wait, you're seeing me pull almost 70K singletarget dps, crushing everything but an elemental shaman (who are clearly in a too good spot atm, who would have guessed with that burst? Oh well), and you're STILL doubting that hunters are doing allright? Man, the fuck do people have to do to prove something to you? We're fine -_____-.
    Quote Originally Posted by Willfox View Post




    When WoL was up last night I had a quick look. It looked like there were no (maybe 1 or 2) hunters on ranked in the top 50 of the first boss. There was a TON of BM hunters ranked in the top 50 of the second boss(Seriously, it looked like there were 20odd BM hunters ranked in the top 50 here). There were a few (5-8) sv and bm hunters on the 3rd and 4th boss with it looking like there were more sv hunters on the third. It doesn't appear that fights other than Feng "force" you to go BM to be competitive but we will see once WoL comes back up and more results come in
    It doesn't force you to be BM. Surv is still stronger. People who think BM is for singletarget are idiots looking at simulationcraft, and I'll keep proving that in raids from now on till people get it. I still beat every BM hunter by 6K dps as surv, and accounting for my bow's 3K dps, then that's still comming out ahead of them, right?

    And a few fun facts, by the way, guys - boss 2, 3, and 4 of MV are purely "singletarget" fights. Spiritbinder can make use of AOE in the spirit world if the sprites spawns closely together, but guess what? Hunters have the most potent aoe.
    The reason BM hunters have done slightly better on Feng than Surv overall, is probably because of the stigma that has been saying "GO BM!" for the entire time Mists has been out, because it's been simming very slightly higher - meaning the "min maxing" players are using BM over Surv for the first raid.

  5. #145
    Draco do you mind disclosing your opening rotation?

  6. #146
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    After our first 4 hour raid(25m), we managed to oneshot Stone Guards with 0 problems. After that, we spent the rest of the night wiping on Feng ... Hunter DPS seems fine, I was top DPS all night(unless I died midfight), 57-62k was the DPS, depending on RNG.

    BM burst is just over the top though, was reaching 160k DPS during the first 20 sec, then slowly going down to 60k. Honestly I can foresee a nerf coming, I was having over 180k Crits with KC during the first 20 sec, along with all Lynx Rush crits being over 100k and GT doing over 110k crits per hit(220k+ total).

    BM is better for this fight, your pet has no downtime and can stay on boss 100% and there isn't much movement, just some with like 6-10 second intervals.

  7. #147
    High Overlord Pol-Kinabol's Avatar
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    I really don't know about PvE hunters but in PvP, they have one hell of a burst.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post

    And a few fun facts, by the way, guys - boss 2, 3, and 4 of MV are purely "singletarget" fights. Spiritbinder can make use of AOE in the spirit world if the sprites spawns closely together, but guess what? Hunters have the most potent aoe.
    The reason BM hunters have done slightly better on Feng than Surv overall, is probably because of the stigma that has been saying "GO BM!" for the entire time Mists has been out, because it's been simming very slightly higher - meaning the "min maxing" players are using BM over Surv for the first raid.
    I would believe that is the case except I saw every single hunter ranked in the top 50(Feng) on WoL was BM and there were a LOT of them, which to me implies BM hunters are fairly strong on that fight. When you see so many hunters regardless of spec on 1 fight it hints that hunters are strong on said fight. There were several SV hunters on other fights why were there none ranked on Feng? Even with the whole "GO BM" thing, you'd expect to see a few SV hunters, but WoL was populated with a TON(ill say it again A TON) of BM hunters in such a way it seemed disproportional.

    I play SV, I like SV, I don't like BM and I intend to keep playing SV, but I found it worthy to note the fact that there were no SV hunters on Feng to my recollection and a disproportionate amount of BM hunters

    Edit: WoL is up now and its pretty much all changed(no surprise)
    Last edited by Willfox; 2012-10-04 at 06:53 AM.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Danshot View Post
    Draco do you mind disclosing your opening rotation?
    Using Lynx Rush atm for the fluidness in the cycle, as I am our resident "raid leader" now that our old GM quit with MOP - which means that I have to keep track of the entire raid, CD's, resses and callouts while doing my cycle. Not having to deal with AMOC makes that a bit easier, as it really doesn't leave alot of "focus" to handle my own character :<.

    Explo shot (need MD threat).
    Stampede.
    Black Arrow.
    Lynx Rush (Pet needs time to get to boss, usually there by now).
    Dire Beast.
    Glaive Toss.
    Explo Shot.
    Serpent Sting.
    Rapid fire + Cobra Shot (depending on focus, this wilk be before or after the serpent sting).
    Readiness + Lynx Rush.
    Explo shot.
    Glaive Toss.
    and back to normal priority (keep BA up on target, ES on CD, Glaive on CD, use cooldowns ASAP, LnL = 3x explo shots, Kill shot prio'd after ES, etc etc).

    Use next Dire Beast after my first rapid fire runs out, no point "refreshing" it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    After our first 4 hour raid(25m), we managed to oneshot Stone Guards with 0 problems. After that, we spent the rest of the night wiping on Feng ... Hunter DPS seems fine, I was top DPS all night(unless I died midfight), 57-62k was the DPS, depending on RNG.

    BM burst is just over the top though, was reaching 160k DPS during the first 20 sec, then slowly going down to 60k. Honestly I can foresee a nerf coming, I was having over 180k Crits with KC during the first 20 sec, along with all Lynx Rush crits being over 100k and GT doing over 110k crits per hit(220k+ total).

    BM is better for this fight, your pet has no downtime and can stay on boss 100% and there isn't much movement, just some with like 6-10 second intervals.
    Your comment about BM being better for Feng would be true, if BM was actually the superior singletarget dps. The only thing that we have that supports that, would be simulationcraft. Even then, it's a 3.5% difference between Surv and BM on singletarget. And as said multiple times, that requires extreme micro management of focus and CD's, which I doubt 99% of the population are going to be able to do.
    Last edited by Dracodraco; 2012-10-04 at 07:21 AM.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    when people say draco is outgearing his guild mates, do we know this for a fact or are you just assuming?
    He most likely went into the raid ini with 2x crafted epics, an 183 weapon, and some other epics. Yet he pretty much outgeared all his dps competetion in his raid.

    ilvls after raid:

    the top dps shaman got ilvl 469
    draco#2 ilvl 474
    #3 druid 471
    #4 shaman 468

    I didn't checked the rest of the raid, but i assume their ilvl is fairly lower than theirs. Also these ilvls were taken after the raid, most of these players also received some items. Its not a huge margin, but it gave him an edge. The weapon alone makes a good difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    There's quite a few other specs that does not have "good" cleave damage, or atleast, are on the same level as hunter. Enh shammies and feral druids springs immidiatelly to mind (they can't respec because they do not have the gear for their spellcaster specs, obviously).
    And the fact that I didn't get #1 on that fight doesn't mean hunters are in a bad place - are you seriously sitting there, telling me that because I was only number 3 worldwide out of all DPS specs on what is probably the biggest patchwerk fight of this tier, hunters aren't doing good enough to compete? Should I have crushed everything beneath me before you'd deem us good enough?
    You missed the point. I am not saying hunters cannot compete. They can compete in single target fights, but they are not doing better than other classes.

    My point is, we lack variety in our options to do dps. The main advantage of a pure dps class is it to choose how you want to deal dps. Take the warlock for example. Warlocks have three specs and all of them pretty much fill different holes. You can spec demo for supreme aoe, you have affi for long single or dual dps fights and you have destro a more burst spec with ok aoe and ok dual dps. Same goes for rogues and mages.

    All hunter specs focus around single target dps. This means that overall we are in a bad place, because we lack options to adapt to certain encounters, where other pure dps classes do not have this problem. I would agree with that design decision if hunters would atleast deal out superior single dps, but we dont.

    Best current example are the stone guards. You see all other pure dps classes doing fine there, but hunters suck, not because we lack the personal skill, but because we lack the skillset given by blizzard. Also notice, all other dps classes do fine at feng, like hunters.

    And that is the point. Our specs lack overall variety. In a perfect world the specs would look something like this:

    BM- mainly single dps
    SV- mainly aoe dps
    MM- multi target dps

    Then we would pretty much have the same skillset that ALL other pure dps classes have right now. Hunter is a one trick pony and not a good one.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiav View Post
    He most likely went into the raid ini with 2x crafted epics, an 183 weapon, and some other epics. Yet he pretty much outgeared all his dps competetion in his raid.

    ilvls after raid:

    the top dps shaman got ilvl 469
    draco#2 ilvl 474
    #3 druid 471
    #4 shaman 468

    I didn't checked the rest of the raid, but i assume their ilvl is fairly lower than theirs. Also these ilvls were taken after the raid, most of these players also received some items. Its not a huge margin, but it gave him an edge. The weapon alone makes a good difference.
    I already told you, that the weapon gives me a -3K dps, switching to a 463. If you notice, -3K dps still puts me 2K ahead of the second-highest, after the elemental shaman, while bringing me down to the same level of the other players gear-wise.

    What this shows is that hunters are doing just fine on singletarget, we might actually be a little strong. It also shows us that *elemental shamans* are stupidly overpowered compared to gear lvl (tomikadzi had 467 average on that fight). Tixx had 455 Ilvl (and missed a majority of enchants) on that fight, and was still smack-down in the middle of everything.
    So getting beat by a class that is clearly overpowered doesn't prove that hunters are doing "badly", anyway.

    (Oh, and FYI, "max item level" means I have the shitty-ass brewfest trinket laying around for my epic-achivement. Not that I had 474 equipped. Might want to look at my EQUIPPED items, and see if the trinket fits in there anywhere X_X).


    You missed the point. I am not saying hunters cannot compete. They can compete in single target fights, but they are not doing better than other classes.

    My point is, we lack variety in our options to do dps. The main advantage of a pure dps class is it to choose how you want to deal dps. Take the warlock for example. Warlocks have three specs and all of them pretty much fill different holes. You can spec demo for supreme aoe, you have affi for long single or dual dps fights and you have destro a more burst spec with ok aoe and ok dual dps. Same goes for rogues and mages.

    All hunter specs focus around single target dps. This means that overall we are in a bad place, because we lack options to adapt to certain encounters, where other pure dps classes do not have this problem. I would agree with that design decision if hunters would atleast deal out superior single dps, but we dont.

    Best current example are the stone guards. You see all other pure dps classes doing fine there, but hunters suck, not because we lack the personal skill, but because we lack the skillset given by blizzard. Also notice, all other dps classes do fine at feng, like hunters.

    And that is the point. Our specs lack overall variety. In a perfect world the specs would look something like this:

    BM- mainly single dps
    SV- mainly aoe dps
    MM- multi target dps

    Then we would pretty much have the same skillset that ALL other pure dps classes have right now. Hunter is a one trick pony and not a good one.
    The main issue here is that you EXPECT us to be a multi-target god in one of our specs. We never WERE a cleave class, and expecting to suddenly be turned into one is just silly. We even have account wide achivements, so rerolling has never been easier (you retain all your feats) - if the cleave is what keeps people from enjoying hunters, then reroll <.<.
    Also, I don't know anything about mages now, but unless the class changed fundamentally, then they do not have a multi-target spec either - fire gives them a single dot that they can throw around on all targets, and in cata, when they had it on 3 targets at once, it gave them a haste-boost (which would have improved their single-target dps, not their cleave dps). The reason they did "fine" in "cleave" fights, was the fact that their singletarget got buffed by doing it.
    Rogues have horrible multi-target AOE, but do well on 2 targets. Add a third, and they start to lack behind. Hunters do well in big-AOE packs, but cut it down to 2 targets, and they do badly. You'll notice that theoreticly, you COULD tank 3 or even 4 guardians together in MV, if your raid could handle using the CD's to survive. Which would put hunters on top.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    I already told you, that the weapon gives me a -3K dps, switching to a 463. If you notice, -3K dps still puts me 2K ahead of the second-highest, after the elemental shaman, while bringing me down to the same level of the other players gear-wise.

    What this shows is that hunters are doing just fine on singletarget, we might actually be a little strong. It also shows us that *elemental shamans* are stupidly overpowered compared to gear lvl (tomikadzi had 467 average on that fight). Tixx had 455 Ilvl (and missed a majority of enchants) on that fight, and was still smack-down in the middle of everything.
    So getting beat by a class that is clearly overpowered doesn't prove that hunters are doing "badly", anyway.
    You have to get our ego out of that. I am not personally attacking you, i am trying to be objective. Yes, 3k dps is a lot. What would have happened if you had a 463 weapon and the others did have a 483 weapon? You would prolly not be not #2. Also if you check WOL. You call hunters strong in the single target dps. I say they are as good as the other dps classes. Mages, warlocks, rogues, hunter they all do around the same dps. The difference is very very marginal. Hunters are not stronger in single dps, if they were, they would be more represented.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    The main issue here is that you EXPECT us to be a multi-target god in one of our specs. We never WERE a cleave class, and expecting to suddenly be turned into one is just silly. We even have account wide achivements, so rerolling has never been easier (you retain all your feats) - if the cleave is what keeps people from enjoying hunters, then reroll <.<.
    Also, I don't know anything about mages now, but unless the class changed fundamentally, then they do not have a multi-target spec either - fire gives them a single dot that they can throw around on all targets, and in cata, when they had it on 3 targets at once, it gave them a haste-boost (which would have improved their single-target dps, not their cleave dps). The reason they did "fine" in "cleave" fights, was the fact that their singletarget got buffed by doing it.
    Rogues have horrible multi-target AOE, but do well on 2 targets. Add a third, and they start to lack behind. Hunters do well in big-AOE packs, but cut it down to 2 targets, and they do badly. You'll notice that theoreticly, you COULD tank 3 or even 4 guardians together in MV, if your raid could handle using the CD's to survive. Which would put hunters on top.
    Wrong again, i don't want us to be cleave class. I want us to have options to contribute something to the raid in these encounters. Blizzards motto is bring the player, not the class. This means that all classes should be equal in some kind of interpretation. If the majority of the pure dps classes 3/4 do good on multi target encounters and that hunter does not. what does that mean?. It means that something is wrong. Because hardcore raiding guilds will not take the player, they will bring the class for these encounters. This is also one reason why if you raid in method or fth or whatever, you have to atleast have TWO valid raid chars. In order to switch if needed. BTW FTH raids three times today, with mains and 2x twinks. Class stacking at its finest

    Even if maybe not all the classes are good in doing multi target damage. They have tools and option to still contribute more damage than the hunter class in these encounters. This has to be addressed. Otherwise the hunter is just inferior to these classes.

  13. #153
    Never really posted before but our hunter mod sure has one hell of an ego lol

    To be honest I think draco just doesn't like BM. Because raiding as BM is just fine, it doesn't require ridiculous focus management like you claim. More and more you post, it just sounds like you hate raiding as BM and want to prove that surv is better, whether if it is or isn't I don't care. Whatever floats your boat, I mean I know a hunter in a guild that used to be US #1 and he even plays marksman in vaults cause he told me he didn't like BM. Fact is, whether you do more dps then a certain class or a certain spec doesn't matter when clearing normals. The OP says hunter damage is lacking, its true and false. Hunter's are fairly average when compared to how we were in the cata, but hey someones gotta be average right? Just like someones got to be at the bottom of the meter even if you do have all outstanding players (not implying hunters are at the bottom either, just makin a point).
    Last edited by Qonnect; 2012-10-04 at 08:28 AM.

  14. #154
    Bloodsail Admiral soulcrusher's Avatar
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    id say its more a skill thing tbh. on feng we had two hunters top 3(25), one surv and one bm and me mid table. they were doing 50k+ and i was around 42k. i tried both BM and surv with similar results in both. I just need to play better, i dont think were underpowered.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiav View Post
    You have to get our ego out of that. I am not personally attacking you, i am trying to be objective. Yes, 3k dps is a lot. What would have happened if you had a 463 weapon and the others did have a 483 weapon? You would prolly not be not #2. Also if you check WOL. You call hunters strong in the single target dps. I say they are as good as the other dps classes. Mages, warlocks, rogues, hunter they all do around the same dps. The difference is very very marginal. Hunters are not stronger in single dps, if they were, they would be more represented.
    3K dps is still enough to keep me above everything but the elemental shaman, who I believe to be grossly overpowered compared to everything else. You clearly didn't read the post where I actually simmed my gear with a 463 wep, and found that the difference was less than 3K between 463 and 483, right? so like. Having me at 66K. We are strong, strong enough to not be worried about singletarget dps. The main issue is that "strong" doesn't mean "overpowered" in this sense - it means we do as well as any other class on singletarget, but we're not outperforming them to the extent that hunters are stacked, like in T11 (pre-nerf). If we were that strong, we'd be in for a nerf. We're not, we're on par with any other class, meaning we're in a good spot.



    Wrong again, i don't want us to be cleave class. I want us to have options to contribute something to the raid in these encounters. Blizzards motto is bring the player, not the class. This means that all classes should be equal in some kind of interpretation. If the majority of the pure dps classes 3/4 do good on multi target encounters and that hunter does not. what does that mean?. It means that something is wrong. Because hardcore raiding guilds will not take the player, they will bring the class for these encounters. This is also one reason why if you raid in method or fth or whatever, you have to atleast have TWO valid raid chars. In order to switch if needed. BTW FTH raids three times today, with mains and 2x twinks. Class stacking at its finest
    Thats the difference between top 100 and top 1000, though. You won't ever find a game that has 11 different classes, and have them all excell at every single thing. Thats why druids are stronger on spread-aoe healing (hots), and holy paladins are stronger on stacked aoe healing (radiance, light of dawn).

    Even if maybe not all the classes are good in doing multi target damage. They have tools and option to still contribute more damage than the hunter class in these encounters. This has to be addressed. Otherwise the hunter is just inferior to these classes.[/QUOTE]

    So tell me, what tools does:
    Enh Shaman.
    Feral Druids.
    Paladins.
    Have that helps them with 2 targets? After 3 targets, dumping with multishot becomes stronger for surv than dumping with Arcane, so we're talking strictly 2 targets here, mind you. I remember our ret pallies going out of their way in Cataclysm to have their judgement hit a second target to keep their censure stack up on 2 targets, for a 2-3k dps increase. We're far better off than that with serpent sting/explo trap/glaive toss atm at the very least.

    And note that Hunter has the BEST mobility of *all* classes in the game - all the benefit of a melee (instant attacks, auto shots on the move, an aspect to allow us to literally never stop moving), and of a ranged (able to attack targets far away). That counts for something on encounters with heavy movement, hunters will *really* shine there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qonnect View Post
    Never really posted before but our hunter mod sure has one hell of an ego lol

    To be honest I think draco just doesn't like BM. Because raiding as BM is just fine, it doesn't require ridiculous focus management like you claim. More and more you post, it just sounds like you hate raiding as BM and want to prove that surv is better, whether if it is or isn't I don't care. Whatever floats your boat, I mean I know a hunter in a guild that used to be US #1 and he even plays marksman in vaults cause he told me he didn't like BM. Fact is, whether you do more dps then a certain class or a certain spec doesn't matter when clearing normals. The OP says hunter damage is lacking, its true and false. Hunter's are fairly average when compared to how we were in the cata, but hey someones gotta be average right? Just like someones got to be at the bottom of the meter even if you do have all outstanding players (not implying hunters are at the bottom either, just makin a point).
    Never claimed I didn't.

    And I never said that you can't raid as BM. Feel free to do so. Feel free to raid as MM too. What I've claimed is that I can beat you as Surv, because BM is as hindered as it is, and over the past few months I've gotten so fed up with everyone that looks at simcraft, sees BM on top, and instantly jumps to the conclusion that BM must be the best spec. Because it isn't, far from - it's not even close to versatile enough.
    And make no mistake - the spec does require you to keep track of your focus, and your pet, and your cooldowns *alot* more than Surv does, due to the way focus fire/frenzy/BW interacts.
    I'd also say it's not true that dps in normals doesn't count. It's a clear indication of how a spec, or class, will do in heroic modes next week - especially on a singletarget fight, such as Feng. I mean, take a look at our ret pally - rank 12 worldwide on Feng, 57K dps. The spec seems to be a fair bit behind hunters. Unless something is changed, why would we bring him to heroic modes? Thats what normal mode dps will show you.

    What you have grasped, is the fact that BEING BEAT by one or two classes doesn't mean we're doing badly. It means we're either average, or above average. You can't have an average without someone being smack-down in the middle, or someone at the very bottom. That we're above the average means we're in a good spot, be glad.

  16. #156
    Just pause for a moment, take a deep breath and just look at your posts... hopefuly you will come to the realisation that you are losing time discussing things that depends a lot on your point of view, RNG, personal preference, too little data to analyse in depth, etc.

    For example, the fact that most hunters in WOL are BM doesnt mean its clearly the best spec, a lot of times people go to simcraft, check what "should be better" and go with it because its still the 1st days of raiding and little personal testing was done between specs, so most people just had to risk a spec and then adjust later if needed. Also, those same people that risked BM as the raiding spec because of "word of mouth" and simcraft had to practice it, while most top people discarted SV so they still didnt had a lot of practice with it aswell.




    The only thing i can state with more certainty in all of this post is that Marksmanship is realy in a terrible spot and blizzard must do something soon(tm).

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    3K dps is still enough to keep me above everything but the elemental shaman, who I believe to be grossly overpowered compared to everything else. You clearly didn't read the post where I actually simmed my gear with a 463 wep, and found that the difference was less than 3K between 463 and 483, right? so like. Having me at 66K. We are strong, strong enough to not be worried about singletarget dps. The main issue is that "strong" doesn't mean "overpowered" in this sense - it means we do as well as any other class on singletarget, but we're not outperforming them to the extent that hunters are stacked, like in T11 (pre-nerf). If we were that strong, we'd be in for a nerf. We're not, we're on par with any other class, meaning we're in a good spot.
    You cleary didnt read my message where i stated that if you lose your weapon and raided with a 463 while OTHERS had a 483 weapon you would prolly not be #2. Since the difference would not be 3k dps it would be maybe 6k dps. [you lose|their gain].

    Yet again the point wasnt your personal dps, it was just the try to set things in a more objective relation. Such as a gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    So tell me, what tools does:
    Enh Shaman.
    Feral Druids.
    Paladins.
    Have that helps them with 2 targets? After 3 targets, dumping with multishot becomes stronger for surv than dumping with Arcane, so we're talking strictly 2 targets here, mind you. I remember our ret pallies going out of their way in Cataclysm to have their judgement hit a second target to keep their censure stack up on 2 targets, for a 2-3k dps increase. We're far better off than that with serpent sting/explo trap/glaive toss atm at the very least.

    And note that Hunter has the BEST mobility of *all* classes in the game - all the benefit of a melee (instant attacks, auto shots on the move, an aspect to allow us to literally never stop moving), and of a ranged (able to attack targets far away). That counts for something on encounters with heavy movement, hunters will *really* shine there.
    You missed the point again.

    #1 I was talking about PURE dps classes. Only advantage of a pure dps class, is it to choose how to deal dps. [Pretty much not the case for hunters]
    #2 I was talking about the variety and roles of several specs and how the hunter lacks them in comparsion to the other pure dps classes.

    Another example just for you. Why does no one plays MM? Because it fills the same role as sv and bm and just underperforms. It is another one out of three single target hunter specs that simply has no room in the current hunter design. What we need are options to better adapt ourselfs for certain encounters like the other pure dps classes can.

    Also as soon as the content is on farm status and the shaman gets gear for off spec, he can just switch spec and overperforms us again. And that is again the point. We have no option to do that, because all our specs limit us to pretty much single dps or die.

  18. #158
    Lack? in 2's me and my friend got owned by 1 BM hunter he did like 700k dmg in less than 8 sec.. :S i was shocked.. :S

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Interfear View Post
    Lack? in 2's me and my friend got owned by 1 BM hunter he did like 700k dmg in less than 8 sec.. :S i was shocked.. :S
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujyUsCnbfrY&feature=plcp

    You mean like that?

  20. #160
    Warchief Shootandkill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interfear View Post
    Lack? in 2's me and my friend got owned by 1 BM hunter he did like 700k dmg in less than 8 sec.. :S i was shocked.. :S
    I think this thread is mostly about PvE dps, which is far more than just a burst phase.

    Our burst is OP, so I would be fine with lowering our burst, as long as they make sure to buff our sustained, because while hunters aren't OP in PvE right now, we're in a good spot like Draco said, and I think we're undeserving of a nerf.
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