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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by tylenol View Post
    That video was so much lols.

    OT: I feel relieved that hunter DPS seems okay, as pointed out by draco on numerous occasions. Was initially sort of worried by simcraft number, however I did always realize that simcraft is just that, simcraft. It's not a perfect tool this early in the game, it will be a lot closer to perfect later on but sims are still sims. WoL is much more useful.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by tylenol View Post
    It would be fun to imagine 2 of them. Each on their own target. How quickly a match could end. xD
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  3. #163
    Draco, consider this: I fire an ES, 2 seconds later MoC will come off CD. I hit a CoS to get the focus needed to hit it, but the next moment LnL procs. I hit it, because its higher prio than MoC, but while I'm doing that GT comes off CD. So I hit GT. But now I'm focus starved and MoC has not been hit for a full 4 seconds + 2 secs of the CoS I will need to hit to get back focus to hit it. This is just an example, you can extend this to , say, DB as well.

    So my question is: Is this a good idea? As long as you can get off the same number of MoCs it may be fine, but DB is a much shorter CD and the delay will affect it a lot more. Is there a specific % of a shot's CD you designate as 'okay' delayable time? i.e. it's fine if I delay MoC by 5 seconds, because it has a 2 minute CD, but is it fine to delay DB by 3 seconds to pull off an LnL? This issue is muddied for me primarily because SS, DB and CoS refund focus.

    What ends up happening is ES>BA>GT>MoC>DB>AS. RF and Stampede as often as I can, I try to sync Stampedes with Bloodlusts (afaik only Autoshots, Cobra Shots and Stampede are affected by haste). But I never change the rotation on the fly because I have no idea what the effect will be. What are the factors to consider if I want to do so?

    Also, you mention haste procs affecting DB ticks. I thought Zeherah said that DB only scales with melee haste? It's why I've been ignoring haste altogether myself.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiav View Post
    You cleary didnt read my message where i stated that if you lose your weapon and raided with a 463 while OTHERS had a 483 weapon you would prolly not be #2. Since the difference would not be 3k dps it would be maybe 6k dps. [you lose|their gain].

    Yet again the point wasnt your personal dps, it was just the try to set things in a more objective relation. Such as a gear.
    I'm not sure what your point is here, though - wouldn't the thing to do, be compare me (69K) to everyone else with a BLUE weapon, so I'm on-par with everyone else? Where does comparing me with a blue weapon to them with an epic weapon give us any usefull information, *at all*?
    But even if we do that, drop me from 69.4K to 66.4K. Then buff everyone else by 3K to give THEM epic weapons.
    We're looking at the elemental shaman doing 73K damage, the feral druid doing 67K damage, the Enh shaman doing 66.7K damage... And then I'm back on top again, no one even close to touching me. It doesn't make sense to do what you're proposing (the sane thing would still be to strip me off my epic weapon and check my dps vs them THEN, as all my other epics barring the belt have been easily aviable to *every* player in the world during this first week). And most of them have had luck at sha/galleon.





    You missed the point again.

    #1 I was talking about PURE dps classes. Only advantage of a pure dps class, is it to choose how to deal dps. [Pretty much not the case for hunters]
    #2 I was talking about the variety and roles of several specs and how the hunter lacks them in comparsion to the other pure dps classes.

    Another example just for you. Why does no one plays MM? Because it fills the same role as sv and bm and just underperforms. It is another one out of three single target hunter specs that simply has no room in the current hunter design. What we need are options to better adapt ourselfs for certain encounters like the other pure dps classes can.

    Also as soon as the content is on farm status and the shaman gets gear for off spec, he can just switch spec and overperforms us again. And that is again the point. We have no option to do that, because all our specs limit us to pretty much single dps or die.
    So explain mages, who has no real 2-target cleave apart from a dot (which we do too, serpent sting from multishot).
    Hunters specs fills three different roles, but not in terms of damage done, but rather, in terms of HOW they deliver damage:

    BM focuses on your pet and has a wide array of pet related abilities.
    Surv focuses on constant high pressure damage with little aviation and low burst, from multiple magical-flocused DoT's.
    MM focuses on constant low pressure damage with stretches of big burst, through physical shots and instant damage.

    That MM is so far behind in damage that no one bother's to use it is a balance issue between the specs, not between the raid utility, that's correct.
    But we do damage in different ways through the specs - just not in the way you want it. If you want the ability to chose between singletarget and multidotting on targets far apart, pick a warlock. If you want singletarget and two close targets, pick a rogue. If you want singletarget and heavy AOE, pick a hunter.

    I also don't get what the shaman being able to play an offspec during farm has to do with literally anything. Most people play their class or spec because they enjoy to do so. Playing enh and elemental are two very different experiences, just as playing kitty and boomkin is. And why would anyone even remotely care about their performance during farm?




    Quote Originally Posted by gulder View Post
    Draco, consider this: I fire an ES, 2 seconds later MoC will come off CD. I hit a CoS to get the focus needed to hit it, but the next moment LnL procs. I hit it, because its higher prio than MoC, but while I'm doing that GT comes off CD. So I hit GT. But now I'm focus starved and MoC has not been hit for a full 4 seconds + 2 secs of the CoS I will need to hit to get back focus to hit it. This is just an example, you can extend this to , say, DB as well.

    So my question is: Is this a good idea? As long as you can get off the same number of MoCs it may be fine, but DB is a much shorter CD and the delay will affect it a lot more. Is there a specific % of a shot's CD you designate as 'okay' delayable time? i.e. it's fine if I delay MoC by 5 seconds, because it has a 2 minute CD, but is it fine to delay DB by 3 seconds to pull off an LnL? This issue is muddied for me primarily because SS, DB and CoS refund focus.

    What ends up happening is ES>BA>GT>MoC>DB>AS. RF and Stampede as often as I can, I try to sync Stampedes with Bloodlusts (afaik only Autoshots, Cobra Shots and Stampede are affected by haste). But I never change the rotation on the fly because I have no idea what the effect will be. What are the factors to consider if I want to do so?

    Also, you mention haste procs affecting DB ticks. I thought Zeherah said that DB only scales with melee haste? It's why I've been ignoring haste altogether myself.
    Glaive toss is a lower priority than murder of crows, so the scenario would end right there - you'd hit AMOC rather than GT, and AMOC before the non-proc'd explosive shot.
    Although, really, if you know how long the fight is going to last, you can push AMOC *alot*. As long as you don't miss out on one throughout the fight, it's fine to delay it for as long as you need.

    As for DB, it has no focus cost, which means that I value it higher than Cobra Shot - so if I'm focus starved and need 2 cobra shots to fire off a AMOC, for example, and DB is off CD, I'll hit DB prior to regenning my focus, as thats a higher-priority button that I can hit *right now*. If that makes any sense .

    And the Pet ticks I'm not actually sure about - I haven't tested myself, but according to Rogerbrown, whom I trust fully to "know his shit", the pet gets extra ticks at specific levels of haste. As it's affected by melee haste, I don't see why that shouldn't be true (haste rating is the superior version of haste, compared to melee/ranged haste, so if it's affected by melee haste, it SHOULD be affected by your personal haste).
    Last edited by Dracodraco; 2012-10-04 at 01:15 PM.

  5. #165
    Draco, disregarding the current discussion a moment, I was curious about your opener; is it definitely preferable to have Serpent Sting that far down the line as SV? It's just that I would have imagined it would be an effective way to maintain DPS between dips of abilities and buffs, if used as the first/second ability (Explo then Serp or vice versa) in the priority.

    Edit: Addendum, would it be more effective to apply Serpent Sting with Multi Shot than the standard Serp, due to Multi Shot only being 15 focus more? I haven't been playing SV much myself, and I am curious.
    Last edited by Shinzai; 2012-10-04 at 12:22 PM.

  6. #166
    First raid last night. Not everything was logged, and garajal has different phases, but I was top 5 damage for the night, including #1 on 2 fights. Hunter's are fine, just practice more.

  7. #167
    i have noticed too that after a lvl it started to go allot down but that might be the gear ur using

  8. #168
    I am Murloc! Anjerith's Avatar
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    To be honest, after years of pretty much being forced to go MM, basically since 3.1, I am more than happy to see it become endangered. BM is far more fun now. SV ... eh I have always felt it should be a melee/utility spec. That is obviously not happening now.
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Gold and the 'need' for it in-game is easily one of the most overblown mindsets in this community.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzai View Post
    Draco, disregarding the current discussion a moment, I was curious about your opener; is it definitely preferable to have Serpent Sting that far down the line as SV? It's just that I would have imagined it would be an effective way to maintain DPS between dips of abilities and buffs, if used as the first/second ability (Explo then Serp or vice versa) in the priority.

    Edit: Addendum, would it be more effective to apply Serpent Sting with Multi Shot than the standard Serp, due to Multi Shot only being 15 focus more? I haven't been playing SV much myself, and I am curious.
    I'm not sure if it is, but the thing to remember here is that SS is now just a "weak" dot, contributing about 8% of my dps over the 7 min feng-fight. You fire it at 8 seconds in, so let's say you lose out on 3 ticks, for an average of 13K damage per tick, or 39K total damage. My explosive shots do 61K dmg per, and my Glaive shot does 40K dmg per. Which means that any of my damaging shots will have a higher priority than getting the serpent sting out (albeit narrowly).
    You also have to remember that you're starting with a full focus bar, you'll be using a TON of globals on abilities that costs no focus, so it's actually very likely (depending on LnL procs) that your serpent sting would fall off, or cause you to delay your higher-priority shots in order to keep it up, if fired off early in the fight.
    I'd also say "no" on multishot, but I haven't actually tested it. I know it's far better if you proc toth to use a multishot (lower cost for more dmg on the shot and same SS duration), but I imagine if it was better than SS on a single target, blizz would have nerfed/buffed accordingly already.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Glaive toss is a lower priority than murder of crows, so the scenario would end right there - you'd hit AMOC rather than GT, and AMOC before the non-proc'd explosive shot.
    Although, really, if you know how long the fight is going to last, you can push AMOC *alot*. As long as you don't miss out on one throughout the fight, it's fine to delay it for as long as you need.

    As for DB, it has no focus cost, which means that I value it higher than Cobra Shot - so if I'm focus starved and need 2 cobra shots to fire off a AMOC, for example, and DB is off CD, I'll hit DB prior to regenning my focus, as thats a higher-priority button that I can hit *right now*. If that makes any sense .

    And the Pet ticks I'm not actually sure about - I haven't tested myself, but according to Rogerbrown, whom I trust fully to "know his shit", the pet gets extra ticks at specific levels of haste. As it's affected by melee haste, I don't see why that shouldn't be true (haste rating is the superior version of haste, compared to melee/ranged haste, so if it's affected by melee haste, it SHOULD be affected by your personal haste).
    Well, fair enough, but my example wasn't really about DB/MoC, it was about picking and choosing priorities on the fly. I don't do it, because I don't understand the effects of it and was wondering what factors you kept in mind while doing it.

    Do you prioritize free LnL shots over everything btw? And what about MoC vs KS?

    And who's Rogerbrown? o_O

  11. #171
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelle View Post
    Would like to get a confirmation on this. I was only expecting it to work in LFR and on Sha of Anger!?
    Nope, they work on everything. I made a thread ages ago stating how annoying this would be in the long run, got mowed down by people telling me grinding dailies forever more would be good.
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  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by gulder View Post
    Well, fair enough, but my example wasn't really about DB/MoC, it was about picking and choosing priorities on the fly. I don't do it, because I don't understand the effects of it and was wondering what factors you kept in mind while doing it.

    Do you prioritize free LnL shots over everything btw? And what about MoC vs KS?

    And who's Rogerbrown? o_O
    Rogerbrown is Method's (only good :O?) hunter .

    And I don't really think of what I do when I prioritise one thing over another, really - I just hit the buttons as I see them light up, following the normal priority. If I do anything different, I don't think about it, atleast :/. The only thing I prio over LnL charges would be Kill shot (as even a non-crit KS does more dmg than an average explosive shot). I prioritise Kill shot over AMOC, as by 20% on the boss, it is unlikely I will get another AMOC in anyway, so delaying it by 2 globals won't hurt.

  13. #173
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Rogerbrown is Method's (only good :O?) hunter .

    And I don't really think of what I do when I prioritise one thing over another, really - I just hit the buttons as I see them light up, following the normal priority. If I do anything different, I don't think about it, atleast :/. The only thing I prio over LnL charges would be Kill shot (as even a non-crit KS does more dmg than an average explosive shot). I prioritise Kill shot over AMOC, as by 20% on the boss, it is unlikely I will get another AMOC in anyway, so delaying it by 2 globals won't hurt.
    I'd say aMoC > KS at 20-15% since aMoC's CD is halved when used on targets below 20% health thus allowing you to possibly squeeze in another aMoC at the very end. This is considering if boss fights last 7-9 minutes or longer

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    I'd say aMoC > KS at 20-15% since aMoC's CD is halved when used on targets below 20% health thus allowing you to possibly squeeze in another aMoC at the very end. This is considering if boss fights last 7-9 minutes or longer
    You'd need the boss to last atleast 1:30 minutes from you use AMOC, before it dies. Along with this, you'd probably push AMOC back to hit it right at 20%.
    As sub-20% is usually about 15% of the fight, the overall fight length would have to be 10 minutes+ before it's worth it.
    From a singletarget Pov, obviously. Fuck knows with "dotting" up adds ;_;.

  15. #175
    Dire Beast VS Fervor? Because when I run Femaledwarf I'm getting Fervor >>

    Dire Beast loses DPS when the boss moves because the pet has to catch up to the boss correct? or there's a little delay in movement...

    also I was running BM for the first boss in Mogu and was getting beat by the other hunters... one attempt into Feng I was still being beat (They were Surv). Once I switched to Surv I was topping the charts... with BM scale better eventually with gear or whats the deal? Wasn't it supposed to top.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzai View Post
    Draco, disregarding the current discussion a moment, I was curious about your opener; is it definitely preferable to have Serpent Sting that far down the line as SV? It's just that I would have imagined it would be an effective way to maintain DPS between dips of abilities and buffs, if used as the first/second ability (Explo then Serp or vice versa) in the priority.

    Edit: Addendum, would it be more effective to apply Serpent Sting with Multi Shot than the standard Serp, due to Multi Shot only being 15 focus more? I haven't been playing SV much myself, and I am curious.
    If you are using Thrill of the Hunt and you get a proc 5 seconds in or so, Multishot with SrS application vs SrS for 5 focus more? Now if the 7-15k Multishot damage is worth the 15 focus...

    Edit: Said without proc, I feel stupid..
    Last edited by Jeremypwnz; 2012-10-04 at 05:57 PM.
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  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremypwnz View Post
    If you are using Thrill of the Hunt and you get a proc 5 seconds in or so, Multishot with SrS application vs SrS for 5 focus more? Now if the 7-15k Multishot damage is worth the 15 focus without the proc..
    I'm wondering the same thing. Last night in Mogu'shan I was falling behind the other two hunters (who were Survival) and I was BM at the time, but once I switched to Surv I stopped topping them easily and was top 3 of the raid. I would just like to fine tune what I'm doing to optimize that I'm on top.

    After running some femaledwarf.com sims for my gear I'm getting Survival is at 39000 and BM at 39495 for DPS... although BM is higher, I'm doing better as Surv.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Jagera View Post
    I'm wondering the same thing. Last night in Mogu'shan I was falling behind the other two hunters (who were Survival) and I was BM at the time, but once I switched to Surv I stopped topping them easily and was top 3 of the raid. I would just like to fine tune what I'm doing to optimize that I'm on top.

    After running some femaledwarf.com sims for my gear I'm getting Survival is at 39000 and BM at 39495 for DPS... although BM is higher, I'm doing better as Surv.
    BM requires some surgeon-like cooldown management. And Survival does better AOE. xD
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  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremypwnz View Post
    BM requires some surgeon-like cooldown management. And Survival does better AOE. xD
    Yeah BM is odd haha. Everytime I see your name I double take ... my name is Jeremy

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Jagera View Post
    Yeah BM is odd haha. Everytime I see your name I double take ... my name is Jeremy
    Jeremys Unite So That D-word O-word i-word T-word! (Just do it)
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