Thread: Feral Dps at 90

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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Nidums View Post
    Sorry but I completely disagree feral is a top tier class right now and I'm amazed we are getting a buff.

    If you check out top ferals from streams/videos you will see they are topping meters.
    You can do well on some fights if you're fed gear. But the fact of the matter is that an equally skilled rogue can out DPS a feral on almost every fight, so a guild interested in progression-oriented gearing will feed agi gear to their rogue which widens the gap between the rogue and the feral more. The streams and videos you're referencing probably have some very geared ferals topping meters, which is completely possible on some of the fights.

    And even without gear, the feral can still be brought in for the mild utility we bring to the table if needed for an encounter.
    Last edited by aggixx; 2013-05-06 at 05:28 PM.

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  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    You can do well on some fights if you're fed gear. But the fact of the matter is that an equally skilled rogue can out DPS a feral on almost every fight, so a guild interested in progression-oriented gearing will feed agi gear to their rogue which widens the gap between the rogue and the feral more. The streams and videos you're referencing probably have some very geared ferals topping meters, which is completely possible on some of the fights.

    And even without gear, the feral can still be brought in for the mild utility we bring to the table if needed for an encounter.
    As aggixx says, everything is relative around skill and gear. If you're personally topping meters as Feral, you likely out-skill the rest of your DPS and/or out-gear them (or you're padding the meters where damage is needed). All things being equal, Ferals will lag behind easily. Blizz isn't giving Ferals an SR buff just because they randomly feel like it.

    On a different note, I personally find DoC a little disheartening as Feral, especially if you're pushing progression. While the concept is fine in general, I'd often find myself wanting to use the PS proc to heal myself or another member of the raid when not optimal for DPS (or for a b-rez). If I have the choice between saving my instant HT for damage or ensuring someone/myself won't die (or getting someone rezzed quickly), I'll opt for survival. The short version is that DoC can force us to sacrifice some survivability when played optimally for DPS.
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by teddabear View Post
    Feral is better than average at padding meters so that would favor them.
    Not really!
    Also, we are fewer people than most other specs, so we have less people actually running for ranks!

  4. #64
    I noticed some posts by theorycrafters in this thread. Do any of you care to speculate as to why Feral is lagging?

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Parna View Post
    Feral dps atm are useless if in roster you have a dk, war or rogue.
    Rogues and Wars have a solid raid cd (smoke bomb, Rcry and banner).
    Rogues, Dks and Wars have nice buffs for raid compo (Atk power, Atk speed, reduction on boss)
    Rogues and Dks have better personal cds (CoS and AMS)
    And most important thing all 3 classes have better dps then ferals (check it on raidbots 10m HC)
    Obviously at same skill
    I play a Feral druid since last year, now at 10/13 hc probably for Lei Shen hc have to play a other account Mage for that encounter.
    DoC / SotF Feral druid is probably the funniest class to play, but it's useless in this content (if you play 10 men i mean :P)
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=3620&e=4279

    I was the lowest ilevel geared DPS in the raid.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Oak-qt View Post
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=3620&e=4279

    I was the lowest ilevel geared DPS in the raid.
    Lei shen is really good for feral, but where those locks afk?

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Skadovsk View Post
    Lei shen is really good for feral, but where those locks afk?
    lol seriously

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skadovsk View Post
    Lei shen is really good for feral, but where those locks afk?
    So what fights are ferals particularly bad at?

    The only one that I would say is Heroic Durumu and possibly Heroic Dark Animus (if you have to handle an Anima). The rest of the fights I consistently find myself in the top 5.

  9. #69
    My experience with the heroic encounters is a little lacking (although I have participated in most of them and at least have a fair understanding of the rest) but I would say Horridon and Council deserve spots on the "bad for feral" list since during progression the focus is really on focused single target DPS on targets with low TTD, as well as the high priority target is constantly changing throughout most of the encounter, which really emphasizes our weaknesses. We can do fine (or more than fine) on those encounters during farm since the focus pretty quickly shifts from focused single target DPS into just cleaving the hell out of everything on the screen.

    Primordius strikes me as overall pretty lackluster for us as well but by that point my gear was massively behind the rest of the raid so I take my own opinion with a pretty large grain of salt.
    Last edited by aggixx; 2013-05-10 at 11:12 PM.

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  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Paloro View Post
    So what fights are ferals particularly bad at?

    The only one that I would say is Heroic Durumu and possibly Heroic Dark Animus (if you have to handle an Anima). The rest of the fights I consistently find myself in the top 5.
    Is not that they're bad, its that the multidot casters dominate most fights so much that ferals look bad along with many other melee specs.
    and if you're really keeping up with locks for example on every fight then that just means you're better period.
    Last edited by Skadovsk; 2013-05-11 at 05:32 AM.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Skadovsk View Post
    Lei shen is really good for feral, but where those locks afk?
    Running back and forth for thunderstruck and positing themselves for ball lightning? range have such a crap job in p3 heroic leishen :P

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skadovsk View Post
    Is not that they're bad, its that the multidot casters dominate most fights so much that ferals look bad along with many other melee specs.
    and if you're really keeping up with locks for example on every fight then that just means you're better period.
    I think you or your raid leader may have fallen into the trap of looking at an overall damage meter. Sure, warlocks can put out some serious numbers if they have the lei shin trinket, but if you take a look at a heroic maegera kill the warlocks cheese the hell out of the meters by using soul swap to damage the other head. I always out damage them on the targets that are priority of being killed.

    Another fight to look at is heroic council of elders. The melee twisted fate dies in under 10 seconds while the ranged take 15-20. Mind you, this is only using ~7 melee vs 10 ranged.

  13. #73
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    Feral is in a great place for DPS imo.

    The forums are filled with people bitching about melee being terrible in ToT but it simply isn't the case. Having too many melee in your raid is bad but the melee you do have get the easy end of the stick compared to ranged DPS, regardless of how useful ranged DPS is.
    Most of the encounter mechanics in ToT completely ignore melee. The only mechanics that melee have to worry about are ones that the whole raid has to do, like maze on Durumu. The rest of the time melee are largely left alone, while ranged has to run around and catch balls or drop stacks or kite balls etc.

    Most of the top DPS'ers on WoL got there by ignoring mechanics, tunneling, cheesing mechanics or DPS'ing the wrong targets. Feral are doing great DPS compared to most classes and are usually only outdps'd by people sitting on Horridon, or dotting the frost head on magaera, or dotting up everyone on council and ignoring the DPS priority.
    The point is though; for any fight where people are not abusing their class or cheesing an encounter, Feral DPS is top shelf.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Rife View Post
    Feral is in a great place for DPS imo.

    The forums are filled with people bitching about melee being terrible in ToT but it simply isn't the case. Having too many melee in your raid is bad but the melee you do have get the easy end of the stick compared to ranged DPS, regardless of how useful ranged DPS is.
    Most of the encounter mechanics in ToT completely ignore melee. The only mechanics that melee have to worry about are ones that the whole raid has to do, like maze on Durumu. The rest of the time melee are largely left alone, while ranged has to run around and catch balls or drop stacks or kite balls etc.

    Most of the top DPS'ers on WoL got there by ignoring mechanics, tunneling, cheesing mechanics or DPS'ing the wrong targets. Feral are doing great DPS compared to most classes and are usually only outdps'd by people sitting on Horridon, or dotting the frost head on magaera, or dotting up everyone on council and ignoring the DPS priority.
    The point is though; for any fight where people are not abusing their class or cheesing an encounter, Feral DPS is top shelf.
    Everybody has to kite lightning balls and there is less room for error for melee. Everybody has to kite the Direhorn. If you aren't catching food on Jikun you are hurting your DPS. If your Feral is out-dpsing everybody he is just a better player.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by teddabear View Post
    Everybody has to kite lightning balls and there is less room for error for melee. Everybody has to kite the Direhorn. If you aren't catching food on Jikun you are hurting your DPS. If your Feral is out-dpsing everybody he is just a better player.
    I agree with the better player part. But which lightning balls does everyone have to kite? Also ranged have the direhorn on them for faaar longer than melee.
    I think that what Rife brought up is an interresting point about the melee vs. ranged problem. I do still believe that ranged are better though. Ranged movement is so strong atm, that they can keep up most of their dps WHILE also doing the mechanics thrown at them. Also you gain very little from having melee dps. Ranged can do melee dps's job, but melee can't do ranged dps's job.

  16. #76
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    Ranged has to kite lightning balls to the edges of the room (refering to jin'rokh). Melee can stay on the boss 100% of the time. Melee have to move away for Heroic storms though but melee get 100% up-time during pools where ranged will have to run out at least once, sometimes more often.
    Ranged and healers get Barney's (direhorns) WAAAYYYYYY before melee has to worry about them and most melee can macro an interrupt or off the GCD ability to it and forget about it once they do get it.
    Ranged have to move around spears and stack/spread when needed for iron qon normal and heroic, where melee can usually just sit on the boss and move 1 yard into the hitbox when they stack while ignoring the rest of the mechanics.
    Ranged have to catch balls on lei shen and spread/stack for lightning while melee doesn't need to move for anything except when they follow the boss around.
    Ranged need to drop cinders on Magaera and then stack for rampage while melee alternate between two locations the whole fight and are ignored by cinders.
    Ranged kick and kill turtles on tortos while melee can usually tunnel the boss/bats but it can depend on your strat.
    Ranged have to move to drop the pool on durumu and need to run for the maze. If the ranged dps can't do 100% of their damage on the move then melee have the advantage because they can, while strafing in the melee path not losing 0 DPS.
    Ranged have to deal with biting cold and traps and the stacking debuff one on council, all of which melee ignore. Ranged also deal with the add. Melee can tunnel/cleave the bosses the whole time.

    Almost every fight may favour ranged DPS when considering the raid overall, but melee still have an easier time than ranged in almost every case. Nearly every normal and heroic fight have mechanics specifically targeted at ranged dps/healers which completely ignore or favour melee.
    I agree that ranged DPS may be more useful to your raid but I don't see how melee are at a disadvantage from a mechanics standpoint. There are very exceptions to that in ToT and most of those cases, such as lightning storm on H Jin'Rokh, affect both melee and ranged dps equally and only really favour ranged dps that can do 100% of their DPS on the move like KJC warlocks or hunters.

    Seriously every fight I can think of at the moment has extra mechanics that ranged need to deal with that melee can 100% ignore.

    Most mechanics targeted at range require movement/stack/spread/positioning.
    Most mechanics targeted at melee are more damage taken. Which ends up becoming the healers problem, not the melee players problem.

  17. #77
    I disagree with most of those however ranged does get hosed on heroic Iron Qon. I have to ask you this though - with Feral being 40% below Warlocks on heroic 25man on Raidbot, are you saying Feral will need more than a 40% buff if the mechanics don't favor them as heavily as the do in ToT?

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by teddabear View Post
    I disagree with most of those however ranged does get hosed on heroic Iron Qon. I have to ask you this though - with Feral being 40% below Warlocks on heroic 25man on Raidbot, are you saying Feral will need more than a 40% buff if the mechanics don't favor them as heavily as the do in ToT?
    I'm hesitant to use raidbots as an accurate measure on the state of DPS. Most of the best players have private logs and the ones we do see on raidbots are affected by much more than DPS output balance. There is a big difference between being top of the meters on Horridon and dealing the most damage to wastewalkers, venom priests and bloodlords, for example.

    I suppose you're looking at 25H max dps on raidbots to see a 40% disparity? Max DPS is a terrible metric to measure actual DPS. Many of the logs are nothing but gimmick's with people doing 100% of their damage on bats, or sitting on horridon the whole time or multi-dotting magaera etc. Last week 10N highest council DPS was 345k, now its just shy of 600k. Max DPS fluctuates a huge amount from week to week with people doing silly stuff to pad meters. I wouldn't worry about it.

    From what I've seen in-game, on streams and from talking to other raiders though, feral's are doing very well but it's a difficult spec to play.

    They're also about to get a ~7% buff.

    Do you think ranged DPS have it easier than melee in ToT on mechanics? Or just that locks/mages/boomkins/spriests are higher DPS than dk/warrior/WW/feral?

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Rife View Post
    Do you think ranged DPS have it easier than melee in ToT on mechanics?
    I don't think anyone's concerned with how difficult a role is to play. The concern is how viable that role is.

    There are mechanics that melee are not capable of handling -- or at least poor at handling -- like ice walls, whirl turtles, living fluids, or anima/vita essences. Ignoring these mechanics may make a melee's job easier, but they also make that melee less viable to bring to the fight. It's these sorts of mechanics that make a ranged-friendly fight.

    On the other hand, it's certainly the case that there are mechanics that ignore melee and they are better off for it. Torrent of ice, arcing lightning, spear throw, diffusion chain, thunderstruck -- generally mechanics where the raid isn't harmed (and is often helped) by the fact that it ignores you. These mechanics do enhance the viability of melee.
    Last edited by Aseyhe; 2013-05-20 at 07:45 AM.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Rife View Post
    I'm hesitant to use raidbots as an accurate measure on the state of DPS. Most of the best players have private logs and the ones we do see on raidbots are affected by much more than DPS output balance. There is a big difference between being top of the meters on Horridon and dealing the most damage to wastewalkers, venom priests and bloodlords, for example.

    I suppose you're looking at 25H max dps on raidbots to see a 40% disparity? Max DPS is a terrible metric to measure actual DPS. Many of the logs are nothing but gimmick's with people doing 100% of their damage on bats, or sitting on horridon the whole time or multi-dotting magaera etc. Last week 10N highest council DPS was 345k, now its just shy of 600k. Max DPS fluctuates a huge amount from week to week with people doing silly stuff to pad meters. I wouldn't worry about it.

    From what I've seen in-game, on streams and from talking to other raiders though, feral's are doing very well but it's a difficult spec to play.

    They're also about to get a ~7% buff.

    Do you think ranged DPS have it easier than melee in ToT on mechanics? Or just that locks/mages/boomkins/spriests are higher DPS than dk/warrior/WW/feral?
    Which do you think is more important, damage to Horridon or damage to wastewalkers, venom priests and bloodlords?

    I doubt there are bunch of private logs with scores higher than you are seeing on Raidbot. There is no shortage of videos from top guilds that have meters running.

    There are plenty of metrics to measure by, Top 100 or All parses with 14 different percentiles. If you really want to be a stickler for detail you can go to WoL and look at the individual parses. Looking at different percentiles for each fight tells you a lot.

    There is no one answer to who has it better, the fights are designed that way on purpose. It's pretty rare for there to be useless damage on a boss fight though. Dotting up Blue on Magaera is the only one I can think of in ToT. If a spec was near the bottom on Jinrokh but near the top on Overall I would see no reason to complain.

    I would put DKs in the group that are just better. I would also say they are better by a larger margin that the anticipated buff. Also Enhancement Shammies are in the same boat but even worse.

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