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  1. #201
    I loved the story. So I will be returning to the game once it goes free to play. But I don't think this game ever should have been an MMO. They sadly wasted so much great story on a format that did not click.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnomergon View Post
    But I don't think this game ever should have been an MMO. They sadly wasted so much great story on a format that did not click.
    Again another person stating that the game failed as a MMO, I have asked this question before and got ignored so can someone please tell me what makes a MMO a MMO that is missing from TOR? In my (admittedly limited) experience TOR has more levelling group content than any other MMO I've played so I can't get my head around why so many people see it as a single player game.

    On the subject of 'Is TOR a failure?', in my opinion it all depends on what you regard a failure so is very subjective. I think it is difficult to assess TORs success/failure without having a clearly defined list of areas to rate against and even then different people will put different weighting against each of those areas...e.g. EA will have a monetary target number put against this project which I am betting it has not achieved, so in that regard it has failed....EA will set that high on their list of assessment, do I care about that target? No. I only care if the variance between that target and the actual affects support and development of the game and only time will tell on that.
    TOR has failed in some departments and succeeded in others - as most things in life tend to do. IMO it has failed in more areas than it has succeeded in so could be deemed a failure, but I think it has succeeded in enough areas (most important area for me is….does it entertain me, do I enjoy playing it?) for me to regard it as a success but as I said this is my personal assessment.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Bolverk View Post
    Again another person stating that the game failed as a MMO, I have asked this question before and got ignored so can someone please tell me what makes a MMO a MMO that is missing from TOR? In my (admittedly limited) experience TOR has more levelling group content than any other MMO I've played so I can't get my head around why so many people see it as a single player game.

    On the subject of 'Is TOR a failure?', in my opinion it all depends on what you regard a failure so is very subjective. I think it is difficult to assess TORs success/failure without having a clearly defined list of areas to rate against and even then different people will put different weighting against each of those areas...e.g. EA will have a monetary target number put against this project which I am betting it has not achieved, so in that regard it has failed....EA will set that high on their list of assessment, do I care about that target? No. I only care if the variance between that target and the actual affects support and development of the game and only time will tell on that.
    TOR has failed in some departments and succeeded in others - as most things in life tend to do. IMO it has failed in more areas than it has succeeded in so could be deemed a failure, but I think it has succeeded in enough areas (most important area for me is….does it entertain me, do I enjoy playing it?) for me to regard it as a success but as I said this is my personal assessment.
    The developers created the oppertunity to share your characters with other players. You are now part of something bigger... personally I love the MMO, the RP possibilities are hughe, while we don't have transmo, we have orange gear that you can remod...

    Just some players who wheren't satisfied with the endgame complained... While the new ops... looks great. Bioware learns. Failure? Not really, just all idiots are gone now

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Marverick66 View Post
    The developers created the oppertunity to share your characters with other players. You are now part of something bigger... personally I love the MMO, the RP possibilities are hughe, while we don't have transmo, we have orange gear that you can remod...

    Just some players who wheren't satisfied with the endgame complained... While the new ops... looks great. Bioware learns. Failure? Not really, just all idiots are gone now
    To me, without chat bubbles (and it's ludicrous that they even launched without them, nevermind STILL not having them), the game's RP potential is close to zero. It's not like this feature wasn't in NWN many years ago, so at some point they knew how to do it correctly.

  5. #205
    I can't believe this bait thread got so many reply's. Again it's personal preference. I had fun while I did play the game. I wanted to see the class quest and a bit of PVP nothing more or less. I got to see some amazing storylines. The only class story's I did not finish were the Trooper and Jedi Guradian. That's it besides the rest I completed every class at least once.

    I played for months since pre beta and followed it for a year before actual release. I had fun. I paid so much and got my entertainment value out of it. Now I'm waiting for free to play to see what the store offers before I return. Does it tell amazing compelling storylines perhaps better then any game? without a doubt. Is it worth logging into for 5 hours a day everyday. Maybe not and that's a good thing. I don't want to throw away years trying to get to max level. I had fun and that's what's important to be.

    People should not be so eager with glee to see another MMO do well. What will happen when wow goes away? no one is going to want to invest in MMO's anymore because they all end up not doing quite so well. When a MMO does well then with wow you get annual pass, free game D3, perks in game mount. It makes the game better. Just my two cents.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by lordbaldric View Post
    To me, without chat bubbles (and it's ludicrous that they even launched without them, nevermind STILL not having them), the game's RP potential is close to zero. It's not like this feature wasn't in NWN many years ago, so at some point they knew how to do it correctly.
    Chat bubbles? Honestly? Regardless chat bubbles ARE comming to swotor if thats whats keeping you away from the game. RP is about improvising and letting your imagination run freely. Swotor gives alot of oppertunities to do so. Not just that, its easy to pick up the lore of swotor just by playing the game.

    And... orange gear... remodable gear, you can actually RP through Ops and flashpoints unlike other games.

  7. #207
    There was an article just a few days ago that the top 2 Bioware leads both resigned/were fired because EA privately considers SWTOR and ME3 pretty colossal failures, and EA was treating them poorly for it. Basically it was clear they weren't going to be promoted anytime soon and their careers at EA were done. So those work situations are always kind of a grey line between getting fired or quitting. But that summed up at least if EA thinks it's a failure. The development costs are all sunk for SWTOR, so they aren't going to publicly admit it. But it going free-to-play after the huge money they invested was definitely not what they wanted, it was more of a last resort hail mary.

    As a side-note the Bioware leads also cited the fan complaints about both games as reason for resigning. They said that they put a lot of overtime and heart and soul into the game and then for it to flop was heartbreaking, and both are actually leaving the video game industry.

  8. #208
    I wouldnt say its fair to call it a failure simply because it was not able to meet its very hich expectations. I'd say its a good game, a good MMO. but its certainly not the best. and financially its not a flop, not the expected success but as far as I know its not a financial failure.

  9. #209
    It's definitely a failure based on potenial (the studio, license, and money) and with the output seeming like an older game with a relatively poor engine.

    As an actual MMO it's pretty decent. But considering everything else it's a failure since it should have been much, much more.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Tumaras View Post
    There was an article just a few days ago that the top 2 Bioware leads both resigned/were fired because EA privately considers SWTOR and ME3 pretty colossal failures, and EA was treating them poorly for it. Basically it was clear they weren't going to be promoted anytime soon and their careers at EA were done. So those work situations are always kind of a grey line between getting fired or quitting. But that summed up at least if EA thinks it's a failure. The development costs are all sunk for SWTOR, so they aren't going to publicly admit it. But it going free-to-play after the huge money they invested was definitely not what they wanted, it was more of a last resort hail mary.

    As a side-note the Bioware leads also cited the fan complaints about both games as reason for resigning. They said that they put a lot of overtime and heart and soul into the game and then for it to flop was heartbreaking, and both are actually leaving the video game industry.
    Citation needed if you are going to make outrageous claims.
    WoW having more subs than SWTOR is the same thing as Justin Bieber having more youtube plays than Tupac. Just because its more popular doesn't mean its good.
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  11. #211
    Pandaren Monk gypsybob's Avatar
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    While it was a good game, it just promised far more than it could ever deliver. I am saddened that it has gone the way it has. Not a total failure but definately a failure of some sort.

  12. #212
    High Overlord Shekita's Avatar
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    It's definitely arguable.

    It failed in a lot of ways but failed as game in general is a stretch. It still did a lot better post-launch than Warhammer, Age of Conan etc. so I wouldn't say it was a failure.

    It still has a decent playerbase and the free-2-play model may do them some good depending on how they decide to pull it off.

    But they came out fists swining, lots of money on marketing and the like. A lot of time and money went into the project etc. and for the end result to be what it is....was definitely a failure.

    I liken it to a 200 million dollar movie being made but only making 100 million in the movie theaters. It drew a lot of people in initially but word of mouth and bad critic reviews etc. just killed it.

    I played the game for awhile and for a couple of weeks it didn't feel like your typical MMO, but then you noticed all the similarities and you come to realize that outside of the better cutscene and voice acting, the game offers little that other games don't.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Shekita View Post

    I liken it to a 200 million dollar movie being made but only making 100 million in the movie theaters. It drew a lot of people in initially but word of mouth and bad critic reviews etc. just killed it.
    except that its been referred to as profitable time and time again. Even in the sales call when they called it earnings "disappointing" they still said it was profitable. Just less than expected. So... No. Its more like a 150 million dollar movie made 300 million when they wanted to make 600 million.
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  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    except that its been referred to as profitable time and time again. Even in the sales call when they called it earnings "disappointing" they still said it was profitable. Just less than expected. So... No. Its more like a 150 million dollar movie made 300 million when they wanted to make 600 million.
    To be fair neither of you can prove it's profitability or lack there of without actual numbers.

    Making some assumptions here, if 2 million bought the game at full profit and we assume they made $40 pure profit per box and then to make a quick average we say that those 2 million subscribed for 5 months, this would be 80 million + 150 million for a total of 230 million, take away their expenses since launch and I'd say from a quick glance that they are around the 200 million mark that is assumed to be the total development cost.

    Using these numbers and adding the expected minimum return from a 5+ year investment I doubt they are considered in the black yet.
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  15. #215
    Legendary! SirRobin's Avatar
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    Oh yeah, given all the potential variables, we just can't say whether TOR has "paid for itself" or not yet. Personally I think its likely but, again, we don't have anything official on it yet and given this game's troubles? Well, I doubt anyone at EA is going to be volunteering any details any time soon, if ever. Now I figure we can safely say that TOR isn't making anywhere near as much money as Johnny wanted.
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  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by SirRobin View Post
    Oh yeah, given all the potential variables, we just can't say whether TOR has "paid for itself" or not yet. Personally I think its likely but, again, we don't have anything official on it yet and given this game's troubles? Well, I doubt anyone at EA is going to be volunteering any details any time soon, if ever. Now I figure we can safely say that TOR isn't making anywhere near as much money as Johnny wanted.
    SWTOR could make billions and good ol' Johnny would still not be satisfied.

  17. #217
    Wow, this video has certainly spawned some discussion here. I'd say that's a good thing.

    Mainly I'm only advocated what Syncaine wrote about on his Hardcore Casual blog today. In an article discussing how to define success in the MMO genre, he said the following:

    "A successful MMO is one you enjoy playing, one that has an active dev team, and that active dev team is producing content that is enjoyed by the current player base (you). This in turn creates a game you not only enjoy playing, but can continue to enjoy playing long-term."

    http://syncaine.com/

    That's pretty much the point I was trying to make. I believe that a game can be a personal failure for individuals, but overall, no game is truly a failure as long as it retains a sizable playerbase and a dedicated development team.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by XeroFive89 View Post
    Wow, this video has certainly spawned some discussion here. I'd say that's a good thing.

    Mainly I'm only advocated what Syncaine wrote about on his Hardcore Casual blog today. In an article discussing how to define success in the MMO genre, he said the following:

    "A successful MMO is one you enjoy playing, one that has an active dev team, and that active dev team is producing content that is enjoyed by the current player base (you). This in turn creates a game you not only enjoy playing, but can continue to enjoy playing long-term."

    http://syncaine.com/

    That's pretty much the point I was trying to make. I believe that a game can be a personal failure for individuals, but overall, no game is truly a failure as long as it retains a sizable playerbase and a dedicated development team.
    I think a lot of people were disappointed because they were burnt out on MMOs in general and SWTOR isn't that different from WoW where most people would have come from. The thing is that Bioware are actually delivering good content, just not as fast as some customers would like. All of the new FPs and Ops delivered since launch have been great. The Rakghoul plague was a fun event (the Gree one was not as good).

    I also think that a lot of people were just scared to jump ship and try to find new friends in a new MMO. Most of my WoW guild gave it a go and but we didn't have quite enough for Ops so a few went back to WoW. I think if we'd have started running Ops they'd have realised that they are actually pretty fun.

    Another issue is the lack of transfers and I think this left a lot of people in underpopulated servers and probably caused a stack of people to quit that would have kept playing if they could have transferred earlier. It really should have been in at launch.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by XeroFive89 View Post
    "A successful MMO is one you enjoy playing, one that has an active dev team, and that active dev team is producing content that is enjoyed by the current player base (you). This in turn creates a game you not only enjoy playing, but can continue to enjoy playing long-term."

    http://syncaine.com/
    • enjoy playing - checked
    • active dev team - checked
    • producing content - checked
    • player base - checked
    • long term goals -checked

    Semms like the game is no failure as a game, maybe it is as a investment. But as a game it still is there, get developed, has long term anouncements and more. Hell, even f2p hasn't gone live. And if they do it good they could get the playerbase back to a few millions. Do you know WoT? I know people that paid over 500€ in 2 years into a f2p without to be p2win. When SWToR can walk this line nearly as good, the game will hold its point. Hell even lotro is still there!

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  20. #220
    Stood in the Fire Centerra's Avatar
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    If they put that money into Kotor3, it would have been the best thing released that year. But swtor? I just don't see why it was an mmo. The mmo aspects completely undermined the story. Theres no immersion to your characters story when you can see 10 other of class going into the instance for the same cutscene as you.

    And paying a subscription for a game with no long term content wasn't going to happen for me, I unsubbed before the first month . The only long term stuff seemed to be rolling a new character to see another story. People in my guild beat the nightmare mode stuff on the first night they tried it, and while some of the flashpoints I did were great (the story on the first sith one was amazing, but as an healy inquisitor I could solo it), the majority of them were just boring samey humdrum dungeons.

    All in all there was no reason for it to be an mmo. MMos are not good places to tell individual character stories unless its one your create yourself with the players around you. Plus the game brought nothing new to the table gameplaywise. So tbh I'd vote failure, but a big shame as the talent behind could have made a single player game that kept people busy for years. Altoholics (and of course there is a lot of them) are probably still having a great time though.

    That said, I'll probably finish the story once Ftp goes live.

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