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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by Letmesleep View Post
    You can argue that some other MMO is better, but the numbers support WoW.
    The number of flies that eat shit supports that it's the better choice as well...
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  2. #322
    Warchief Letmesleep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbombard View Post
    Actually looking at WoW is not a great way to understand why subs work. WoW works because they have a huge loyal and addicted customer base, and that won't hold true for anyone else.
    I don't really understand statements like this. If people are addicted it's because they are having fun. If they are having fun then the game must be well made. WoW players aren't some brainwashed sub breed of human who don't have any choice in the matter. As I said, if I ever went back to MMOs, I'd go back to WoW too. In my personal opinion, it's still the most fun out of all the MMOs I've tried. I don't know why some people treat WoW players like aliens that don't count for anything and aren't useful as measurement of things. People play it because they like it. I actually wanted SWTOR to be WoW in space, and had it been that I probably would have stayed.

    Rift on the other hand is a great example of a sub game with a working model. They aren't anywhere as big as WoW but, with far less financial resources they put out tons of quality new content on a frequent basis, engage and communicate with their community, and actually make customers feel like their money is worth it.
    Even if wow was to die(which it won't), the subscription model will survive as long as companies provide value to the customer for their sub fee.(and that is value as the customer sees it, not as the company sees it)
    Rift is one of the more commendable MMOs on the market but still takes a backseat to WoW for a reason. I actually agree that the sub model won't die as long as players deem a game good enough to play.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    The number of flies that eat shit supports that it's the better choice as well...
    Cute. Thanks for your contribution to the discussion.
    Last edited by Letmesleep; 2012-10-05 at 02:43 AM.

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Letmesleep View Post
    Cute. Thanks for your contribution to the discussion.
    It had as much validity as your subjective reasoning why WoW was the best MMO.
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  4. #324
    Warchief Letmesleep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    It had as much validity as your subjective reasoning why WoW was the best MMO.
    Not here to argue with you about which MMO is best. I gave my opinion in light of a larger topic of subscription models, that's all. There was no need for you to be snarky.

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by Letmesleep View Post
    Not here to argue with you about which MMO is best.
    Yet you finish off telling people that they can argue about it but in the end the number of WoW players supports your subjective view, I simply showed how flawed that logic was.

    There are a number of reasons people stick with WoW that has nothing to do with it being the better game, time invested is one of them which is as strong as addiction simply due to the feeling of loss if you where to quit and leave it behind.
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  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Letmesleep View Post
    Not here to argue with you about which MMO is best. I gave my opinion in light of a larger topic of subscription models, that's all. There was no need for you to be snarky.
    You'll have to ignore Alyssa. That's just how Alyssa does things. Snarky for no reason. But he isn't wrong, just his way of going about it is. Just because the mass populace believes something is better doesn't make it better. Like Iceberg's siggy says, Justin Beiber videos have more views than 2pac videos, but it doesn't make his music better. HK-51 posted the link beforehand that shows why that argument lacks any validity.

    Found it : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-04 at 11:22 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    Yet you finish off telling people that they can argue about it but in the end the number of WoW players supports your subjective view, I simply showed how flawed that logic was.

    There are a number of reasons people stick with WoW that has nothing to do with it being the better game, time invested is one of them which is as strong as addiction simply due to the feeling of loss if you where to quit and leave it behind.
    Other reasons being the bonds you've forged with others. There are a slew of reasons why it has so many subscribers still. Oh yeah, it also helps when more than 50% of your subscribers live in China and pay by the hour to play.

  7. #327
    Warchief Letmesleep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    Yet you finish off telling people that they can argue about it but in the end the number of WoW players supports your subjective view, I simply showed how flawed that logic was.

    There are a number of reasons people stick with WoW that has nothing to do with it being the better game, time invested is one of them which is as strong as addiction simply due to the feeling of loss if you where to quit and leave it behind.
    Oh my fucking god. What is your damage? Your argument IS JUST AS SUBJECTIVE. I DON'T CARE which MMO is best. I really don't. I really, really, really don't. I'm leaving this thread. I came in to discuss one thing and now I'm ARGUING about another. I'm gonna go play Torchlight 2.

  8. #328
    I think it's fair SW is a failure when fan boys went on for months saying it's a wow killer. The jokes on them

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    Yet you finish off telling people that they can argue about it but in the end the number of WoW players supports your subjective view, I simply showed how flawed that logic was.

    There are a number of reasons people stick with WoW that has nothing to do with it being the better game, time invested is one of them which is as strong as addiction simply due to the feeling of loss if you where to quit and leave it behind.
    Time invested, familiarity and friends are why people still play WoW, not because it's actually a better game than the others. Blizzard still make ridiculous design decisions as evidenced by the recent JP/VP reputation changes. At least they acted quickly on it. Unfortunately heroics are faceroll in greens and people point that you should then go and do challenge modes which are the "new heroics", but they favour certain classes for speed runs rather than testing skill.

    SWTOR to me is the most fun MMO and I will continue to subscribe to it.

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by Letmesleep View Post
    Oh my fucking god. What is your damage?
    You mad bro?

    Quote Originally Posted by Letmesleep View Post
    Your argument IS JUST AS SUBJECTIVE. I DON'T CARE which MMO is best. I really don't. I really, really, really don't. I'm leaving this thread. I came in to discuss one thing and now I'm ARGUING about another. I'm gonna go play Torchlight 2.
    Nor do I, I wasn't the one making claims like The only reason other games can't count on the model is because they aren't as good as wow...WoW simply continues to prove itself the better game because even despite the cost it remains the largest MMO on the market...You can argue that some other MMO is better, but the numbers support WoW, I only showed you that your assumption that WoW's size made it the better game was and is flawed, nothing to get worked up about.
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  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by Letmesleep View Post
    I don't really understand statements like this. If people are addicted it's because they are having fun. If they are having fun then the game must be well made. WoW players aren't some brainwashed sub breed of human who don't have any choice in the matter. As I said, if I ever went back to MMOs, I'd go back to WoW too. In my personal opinion, it's still the most fun out of all the MMOs I've tried. I don't know why some people treat WoW players like aliens that don't count for anything and aren't useful as measurement of things. People play it because they like it. I actually wanted SWTOR to be WoW in space, and had it been that I probably would have stayed.
    ....
    I think you misunderstand me. WoW is a great game. However there are quite a few factors that help them outside of just their model, and thus if you want to understand why the subscription model works the fewer factors you have to look at it make it easier to understand.
    Also, WoW has had a lot more time to grow their player base and create customer loyalty that new games starting with a subscription model simply cannot match. If you were to compare Rift in their first year to WoW in their first year, the numbers would favor Rift. But even that isn't an apples to apples comparison because the size of the MMO market has grown immensely since then, much of that is because of WoW.

  12. #332
    as someone who thought the Kotor multiplayer would be awesome, I really enjoyed swtor - honestly the questing is miles a head of anything - the sith inq story is fantastic, you get a real sense of connection with your toon - the end game is weaker but its not shit - the raids are fun, some are challenging, Its just the usually wow fanatics that ruined the game, developers cant make anything vaguely like an mmo or the wow nut jobs come out and try to destroy it, they cant fathom playing more than one game - sad really

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by undercovergnome View Post
    as someone who thought the Kotor multiplayer would be awesome, I really enjoyed swtor - honestly the questing is miles a head of anything - the sith inq story is fantastic, you get a real sense of connection with your toon - the end game is weaker but its not shit - the raids are fun, some are challenging, Its just the usually wow fanatics that ruined the game, developers cant make anything vaguely like an mmo or the wow nut jobs come out and try to destroy it, they cant fathom playing more than one game - sad really
    I think the game itself was pretty damn good, but that isn't why people left. People had a blast leveling, but people were paying subs and getting nothing in return, they took far too long to get new content out and people got bored said "I'm not paying for this" and left. The game wasn't bad, when they saw they didn't sell as many boxes as they wanted, instead of investing more in new content, they started cutting costs and things didn't make it out. If they would have doubled down and shown the community they were dedicated to putting out frequent updates, they could have not only kept what they had but pulled in more customers by showing them a company that cares for the player base.

  14. #334
    I am Murloc! Fenixdown's Avatar
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    It was a failure in the sense of what the vocal playerbase wanted it to be, especially on these forums. They wanted it to destroy World of Warcraft. It hardly made a dent in the thick elementium plating of it.

    Next on the list of playerbase failures : Guild Wars 2.

  15. #335
    High Overlord Frostea23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolverk View Post
    You seem to be assuming that the whole of the games player base has a decent gaming computer but I’ll bet a very large proportion of the 2M people who bought SWTOR owned off the shelf PCs that were 12 months + in age, and as such found the game barely playable. To many that will have been enough to stop playing within the first month....obviously I can’t put numbers on it but I’ll bet it was a noticeable contributing factor to the server populations thinning out over the first few months after go live.
    My PC is not very good but it runs WoW and GW2 on high graphics settings well enough (>40 fps) but on SWTOR on very low settings I still get lots of chop particularly in PvP. My sons laptop runs WoW on medium graphics setting just fine, SWTOR is unplayable.
    I hate to say it, but I was one of those people. I was running off of my 2+ year old budget gaming machine with a GTS 240 and a E7500 Wolfdale Core 2 Duo [at 2.93 GHz].

    The GPU was utterly starved since SWTOR was so CPU intensive. My two cores were at constantly 95%+ and could not keep up. I could play single-player content, sure. But I am a big PvP player, and the moment I tried to play a Warzone (or god forbid Ilum), it was painful. My GPU usage would drop to below 30% while my poor little E7500 hacked and wheezed due to the greater player density.

    I really enjoyed the game, but I could not justify paying $15/month for a game I could only enjoy single-player content. And as a college student struggling to pay rent, I was in no position to build myself a new computer. Food took priority.

    Fast forward roughly 9 months; I've graduated college, I saved enough to build myself a new gaming machine with an i5-3570K that I overclocked. Low and behold, the game runs super-smooth, and GPU usage is at a constant 99%.

    Regardless of if BioWare optimized the game since I played it; what was a fact of life when the game was released: any machine that did not have a solid i5/i7 CPU inside was going to face significant bottleneck issues in player dense areas. Many felt marginalized in terms of content, being relegated to the playing single-player quest content, which was not enough for many to justify $15/month.
    Waste not, want not.

  16. #336
    I was 1 of those with a many 1000's of forum posts, living the hype from day 1 (And by that, I mean the 1st rumors from 2005!!)

    CE Ordered 4 mins after pre-orders were available (Dam ordering system failure, or it would have been less =P)

    Played TOR for 5-6 months, getting multiple characters to 50

    Raided, PvP'd, Crafted, Quested, Loved the Story

    Malgus now stills lonely in front of me

    Sub cancelled a long time ago due to, nothing of real substance to the game. Yes it's fun, while your leveling, and yes can be fun if you've got a few friends to do stuff with at 50, but without a real "hamster wheel" hook, I just felt a bit bored.


    ........


    So, yeah, I'd say TOR is a failure (From my perspective) Did it make EA "some" money? Probably. Did it make what they wanted? Not a chance. Is it a good game for a month or 2 of play? Dam straight it is! Is it a sustainable MMO.......now there's the $200 million question =)



  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by jbombard View Post
    Yeah I don't think the problem was that they had subs. The problem was that they thought they could be like Blizzard and take the money and run. The only one that gets away with that in the current MMORPG market is Blizzard, and that is only because of the huge number of addicts. Despite that if WoW isn't able to put out more frequent updates going forward I think you will see more and more people not willing to give them money any longer. They should have used the Rift model, also known as "you give us money we give you value".

    People want value for their money. F2P games are nice because you can choose to buy what you value. Subs work so long as they are providing enough value to their customers so that their customers don't feel like they are getting ripped off. The "you pay us just to log on to our servers" model is dead.
    Take the money and run? You pay for your license to the game!


    Bioware shows you teasers of whats in their game. They can't let your experience it. You know what, lets try to compare it to something else.


    You have 2 sorts of amusement parks, or for the sake of the argument, lets assume their are.

    - The one where you pay an access fee at the entrance and have unlimited access to all rides as many times as you want.
    - The one where you can get inside for free and have to pay every time you decide to take a ride.

    The second amusement park is probably more interesting for the parents who are their to supervise their kids but in the end they'll have to start denieing their kids access to certain rides because it is becomming to costly!
    While the first one has a hard time to decide wich ride he should take now probably, he payed the entrance fee and knows their come no extra cost asside from the "food vendor".

    I like to use the comparison above when we are talking about a sub/f2p(cash shop) model, it speaks for itself. "You decide what you want to pay for", that is truelly a statement I can respect but you abuse it at the same time. TOR doesn't have that sort of f2p model. You'll be able to unlock vanity with it, not content. Subbed players still get priority on content.


    Quote Originally Posted by undercovergnome View Post
    as someone who thought the Kotor multiplayer would be awesome, I really enjoyed swtor - honestly the questing is miles a head of anything - the sith inq story is fantastic, you get a real sense of connection with your toon - the end game is weaker but its not shit - the raids are fun, some are challenging, Its just the usually wow fanatics that ruined the game, developers cant make anything vaguely like an mmo or the wow nut jobs come out and try to destroy it, they cant fathom playing more than one game - sad really
    Indeed, the wow fanatics are truelly... filled with hatred.

  18. #338
    Stood in the Fire voodoohoodoo's Avatar
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    " Is it fair to consider SW:TOR a failure? "

    yes

    /thread 10 chars

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by voodoohoodoo View Post
    " Is it fair to consider SW:TOR a failure? "

    yes

    /thread 10 chars
    no

    /thread

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  20. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letmesleep View Post
    I don't really understand statements like this. If people are addicted it's because they are having fun. If they are having fun then the game must be well made. WoW players aren't some brainwashed sub breed of human who don't have any choice in the matter.
    As someone who has played WoW since it launched and is currently playing MoP: You are mighty assumptive and disrespectful in assuming that addiction is only for simple minded, brain washed people. It's such a larger concept that your petty idea on the situation. We have invested almost a decade into characters and a game. I've played almost 2 years of time added up. Two years. I'm not brain washed, they aren't tricking me. I don't want to leave behind all of the experiences, people, and accomplishments I have had over a huge chunk of my life. To not understand how this is possible is a slight on humanity. His point was entirely valid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Letmesleep View Post
    Cute. Thanks for your contribution to the discussion.
    There was nothing snarky. It was a sound logical argument to express an opinion. The logic used to say the game is better was just because more people do it. A completely opposite experience, but similarly logical argument was used to express the flaw in that way of thinking. It was well thought, and clearly hit home with someone, or else it wouldn't have been so offensive.

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