Is it fair to consider SW:TOR a failure?

[Vice80]

Failed? I don't know really, I don't think it failed. It should've gained them their money back at least for sure.
When it was released I played it a lot. From release date until may. I loved questing and personal stories, I enjoyed choices I could make, shaping up my character the way I wanted her to be (a badass antihero), at end game I farmed warzones and had alot of fun pushing ppl into traps.
Then, as usual with mmos, bad things cought up. First of all, I don't like star wars. So universe already didn't really keep me in. Second, graphics and engine overall were dated and pretty bad. I still remember those terrible loading times and I have a very powerful pc. I couldn't use orange gear on my max lvl character, I had to stick to ugly default gear and look same as everyone else. They fixed it much later on but it was way too late. But what really killed the game for me is that they kept allowing premades to play warzones vs pugs. So my winning percentage went down from about 80% per day to barely 30. "Find your own premade" was never an option for me, so I had no other choice but to simply quit.

[Deleted]

As much as I love SWTOR (still subscribed, even if a only play for a couple of hours each month) I have to admit that it is a failure.
It is still a very good game, but it couldnt live up to the expectations that was build up around it. They failed to deliver a complete game (I blame EA) at launch. They should been given more time to fix and implement things that we take for granted in a modern MMO.

I will stay loyal for a while longer, but the damage is done, what ever they do in the future they will never be able to repair the damage. Sadly.

[Psychlon]

No it is not. The game itself lacks surely the content which we all would have wanted but aside this, the game is stable, playable, enjoyable and delievers on many levels. It was no surprise that those people hyping SWTOR above all others and speaking about "destroying" WoW were brought back to the ground. Then they got angry with Bioware because they didn't deliver what they thought Bioware would.... and went back to WoW only to hype GW2 above everything else... and the game after... and the game after.

The game itself has however failures... and not too less but this is the only game I can play another character and have an entirely different story all the way until end level. As I'm leveling alts frequently... this is the major point for me.

[UncleThursday]

For what I get out of it, it is not a failure.

I enjoy doing the leveling, and with different main class quests for each class, it actually encourages me to level alts, unlike other MMOs where I get a main to max and then barely play any alts. Also, the Legacy system helps there. Just getting your character to finish chapter two makes all your characters in that legacy more powerful (they get all the class buffs of the classes that have finished chapter 2 in addition to their own, besides the ones that don't stack because your faction buff is the same thing). That makes for more incentive to play alts as you get characters past chapter 2.

I enjoy the PvP, at least enough to do the PvP daily pretty often. In other MMOs, I get tired of the PvP very quickly. Huttball and the arena to capture the AI core are especially fun.

I enjoy being able to play my Sentinel as completely light side, my Smuggler like a mercenary (money, fuck with my ship you die, etc.), my Sage as more of a neutral/dark side Jedi, etc.

I enjoy being able to help others on their class quests and see their choices in the cinematics. I also enjoy the social cinematics, I think that's a great idea. The holocall when grouped for quests is also neat.

Fully upgradable gear is nice, especially since you can get some of it fairly early on.

There are some things I wish were a little different, though.

Do we really need orbital stations for all those planets? It seems like a waste except for the planet you need to be inoculated for. We should just have a spaceport on most planets.

I would have liked a little more variety in where I could go to level.

I'm not a huge fan of the no auto attack in combat. It just makes me press 1 more often than I should have to.

Dual spec really should have been in at launch, or at least by now. Even discounting a PvP spec, there are specs for certain classes that are better for solo PvE and certain specs better for group PvE.

Mount training costs and mount costs are still following very old school thoughts to remove money from the economy. They don't need to be so expensive, especially since ability and crafting training costs can remove money very quickly, at least until level 50 and 400 skill.

Now, as to whether the game is a failure? I don't think so. It isn't shut down, so obviously it is either making money or EA hopes the freemium model will give it the chnce to make money. Comparing sub numbers to WoW is silly when considering if a MMO is a failure. WoW is unique, it drew in non-MMO players and created its own subset: WoW players. That subset doesn't play MMOs, it only plays WoW. Compared to other MMOS, though, TOR's subscriptions are at the high end of the spectrum, at least as of the last earnings report that suggested there were still over 500k subscribers.

Could it have done better? Obviously. Could it have done worse? Yes, it could have.

[Psychlon]

There are some things I wish were a little different, though.

Do we really need orbital stations for all those planets? It seems like a waste except for the planet you need to be inoculated for. We should just have a spaceport on most planets.

I would have liked a little more variety in where I could go to level.

I'm not a huge fan of the no auto attack in combat. It just makes me press 1 more often than I should have to.

Dual spec really should have been in at launch, or at least by now. Even discounting a PvP spec, there are specs for certain classes that are better for solo PvE and certain specs better for group PvE.

Mount training costs and mount costs are still following very old school thoughts to remove money from the economy. They don't need to be so expensive, especially since ability and crafting training costs can remove money very quickly, at least until level 50 and 400 skill.

- orbital stations are a waste of time imho... not only for us player but also for Bioware. They don't add really too much to it aside from hoth and quesh where as you have some interactions on the station "necessary" to land.

- more variety to level is another point, more planets would have helped to solve this issue so you could switch faster during your leveling process

- no autoattack is a good thing in my opinion, you have to press something to get something done

- dual spec, agree with you but mostly I see it as a comfort item

- I understand that they want to take money out of the game and this is a good thing. However they could reduce this cost via legacy and character unlocks. I'm playing currently around 8 characters, 4 of them are lvl 50 and the money is not really an issue but would have been nice if legacy would give you more back

[Eroginous]

"A successful MMO is one you enjoy playing, one that has an active dev team, and that active dev team is producing content that is enjoyed by the current player base (you). This in turn creates a game you not only enjoy playing, but can continue to enjoy playing long-term."

Except that this definition of 'success' is completely dependent on the size of the player base and the longevity of the content within the scope of the games budget. If you have 10 million subscribers over a 3 year period but the costs of the game are 25% higher than those 10 million subs can bring in, then your MMO is still a failure. There isn't a gaming company in the world (Blizzard included) who is going to keep supporting a game which costs more than the profit it's bringing in.

In this case, SWTOR cost an obscene amount of money in both development and advertising costs (combined to be over 300 million? not including the future costs of maintaining servers and employing a development team) and hasn't even broken even yet, 10 months after release. The rate of subscriber loss is a clear indication that they will not be able to recover their investment (let alone turn a healthy profit) unless they do something drastic, like going F2P and duping people into micro transactions in hopes of generating a lot of income over the short term.

The real issue with SWTOR and why it failed to deliver as an MMO, is because it did not do anything within the game that made it feel like an MMO. Almost every 'MMO-ish' aspect of the game was designed terribly and did not function as a way to make players feel like they were part of a thriving world with a larger population of other players.

There's an old adage that I think game developers should adhere strictly to if they hope to be successful:

'If it isn't broke, then don't fix it.'

The first thing any game developer needs to do when they are interested in producing a game, is take a look around the genre they are shooting for and find out which game is the most successful game of that genre. The second thing they need to do copy that game in every single aspect of system design, only making changes to accommodate lore and artwork. Other improvements should only be made when it's 100% clear that such changes could only improve the quality of the game.

Because the biggest mistake BioWare made (aside from selling out to EA) was completely ignoring what made other MMOs successful, instead choosing to frankenstein random aspects of other MMOs into their own unique 'TOR' package. As a result, you can take a look at every single aspect of Tor and see areas where the design team completely dropped the ball and failed to deliver something competitive to the current MMO genre (except for artwork and lore content). The fact of the matter is that the only way someone could become a long time subscriber to Tor, is if they had either never played another MMO before in their life (and thus has no frame of reference to the genre) or if they are a really hardcore fan of the Euro SW lore and SWTOR is your only current video game option.

The sad fact is that even for those potential players who have never played another MMO before, they STILL don't have a reason to play SWTOR because it has absolutely zero relation to the story from the movie franchise (which everyone in the world knows about). Even sadder still, BioWare could have developed SWTOR as a single player console RPG (KOTOR 3) with co-op/multi player elements, and NOTHING WOULD BE DIFFERENT ABOUT THE GAME. The game plays exactly like a single player RPG with co-op/multi player elements to it, and that's why it fails as an MMO. Well that, and the fact that it managed to do worse every single important game system which defines solid game play in MMOs.

And no, this post isn't a 'well SWTOR just isn't for you' kind of post. If we were talking about a low budget indie title that was designed for a small niche population of players, you would have a point in that regard. But no, this was meant to be a huge MMO with a substantial market changing budget for the masses to enjoy. It was meant in every way to rival other MMOs (especially wow) and challenge them for the crown. Despite how successful games like Kotor 1 and 2 were, I don't think that investors realized the difference between console and PC gaming popularity, nor did anyone tell them they were financing a game based on the 'C Canon' SW universe.

[RoninaThorstone]

As much as I love SWTOR (still subscribed, even if a only play for a couple of hours each month) I have to admit that it is a failure.
It is still a very good game, but it couldnt live up to the expectations that was build up around it. They failed to deliver a complete game (I blame EA) at launch. They should been given more time to fix and implement things that we take for granted in a modern MMO.

I will stay loyal for a while longer, but the damage is done, what ever they do in the future they will never be able to repair the damage. Sadly.

Then its not a failure.

[woodydave44]

Then its not a failure.

It is in the business world

[RoninaThorstone]

It is in the business world

No, a failure in the business world is when you don't make a profit.

We have no evidence of swtor not being profitable. If anything, we have implications that it has been.

[Forsedar]

It is in the business world

Just like HK stated, its still profitable. If this game starts costing them money to keep active, then its a failure.

[IIamaKing]

I would say yes, EA/Bio had high hopes and it has CLEARLY not met those. Even if you do not think its a fail I would be willing to bet that the big wigs at EA think its a fail. Going F2P in less than a year is bad. People panned Rift pretty hard and it is still there pumping out lots of content and not going F2P.

[Forsedar]

I would say yes, EA/Bio had high hopes and it has CLEARLY not met those. Even if you do not think its a fail I would be willing to bet that the big wigs at EA think its a fail. Going F2P in less than a year is bad. People panned Rift pretty hard and it is still there pumping out lots of content and not going F2P.

F2P is only for the leveling experience. If you want to enjoy the content, you will need to purchase a subscription or any other form they create in order to access content.

Just because the leveling went F2P does not mean that the game failed.

[Eroginous]

No, a failure in the business world is when you don't make a profit.

We have no evidence of swtor not being profitable. If anything, we have implications that it has been.

Actually, we have zero evidence that SWTOR has even broken even with their budget costs, let alone made additional money. The conversion to F2P with micro transactions indicates that they are NOT making profit and anyone with half a brain can see that much. Combine layoffs with server shut downs and people quitting, and you have a recipe for 'SWTOR is a failure.'

Seriously, what is it going to take for you to call a spade a spade?

[notorious98]

I would say yes, EA/Bio had high hopes and it has CLEARLY not met those. Even if you do not think its a fail I would be willing to bet that the big wigs at EA think its a fail. Going F2P in less than a year is bad. People panned Rift pretty hard and it is still there pumping out lots of content and not going F2P.

Again. There's a difference between "Failure" and "Failed to meet expectations". Your comments clearly lie in the latter and not the former. If it was regarded as a failure, they wouldn't bother spending more money and resources to keep it active. It's not the cash cow they expected it to be. That doesn't make it a failure. Trion could have gone F2P but had no desire to do so. Just because it hasn't and TOR has doesn't mean anything. The truth is that Rift likely has less subscribers than TOR, so I'm not really sure why you're even using it as a comparison. Companies choose how they want to price their product. Trion has decided not to do F2P, EA has decided to do F2P, Arenanet decided to do B2P. In the end, you do whatever you think is going to make you more money.

---------- Post added 2012-10-02 at 11:38 AM ----------

- orbital stations are a waste of time imho... not only for us player but also for Bioware. They don't add really too much to it aside from hoth and quesh where as you have some interactions on the station "necessary" to land.

- more variety to level is another point, more planets would have helped to solve this issue so you could switch faster during your leveling process

There's a reason behind Orbital stations. Places like Voss have no affiliations to Empire or Republic. Being as that is, it's unlikely they're going to allow either to build a giant space station that allows them to land their ships on their planet. Belsavis is a prison facility. It would make little sense for them to put landing facilities on the planet that afford the inmates many facets to leave should a prison riot break out, like it has. The reason they're there is simply to keep things somewhat realistic.

As for more variety, yes, it would be nice. Unfortunately, it's not that easy when you're dealing with a linear personal story along the way.

---------- Post added 2012-10-02 at 11:46 AM ----------

Actually, we have zero evidence that SWTOR has even broken even with their budget costs, let alone made additional money. The conversion to F2P with micro transactions indicates that they are NOT making profit and anyone with half a brain can see that much. Combine layoffs with server shut downs and people quitting, and you have a recipe for 'SWTOR is a failure.'

Seriously, what is it going to take for you to call a spade a spade?

Actually, no it doesn't. Turbine said they increased their profits by 300% when they switched to F2P. How can you increase your profits by 300% if they're negative? A switch to a F2P hybrid model does NOT equal unprofitable.

[Forsedar]

Actually, we have zero evidence that SWTOR has even broken even with their budget costs, let alone made additional money. The conversion to F2P with micro transactions indicates that they are NOT making profit and anyone with half a brain can see that much. Combine layoffs with server shut downs and people quitting, and you have a recipe for 'SWTOR is a failure.'

Seriously, what is it going to take for you to call a spade a spade?

There is no evidence that SWTOR is not making profit. Going by personal judgement and assumption doesn't make everything else moot.

The lay-offs you're talking about are mostly what EA does with every game they have ever developed. They hire temps and when the product is released they get rid of the majority of them. As for the product going F2P, the F2P only applies to leveling. Its not like the game itself is now free. You still will have to pay in order to enjoy the game. I don't know how any of these can be used to imply that the game is not making profit.

[Kelimbror]

Actually, we have zero evidence that SWTOR has even broken even with their budget costs, let alone made additional money. The conversion to F2P with micro transactions indicates that they are NOT making profit and anyone with half a brain can see that much. Combine layoffs with server shut downs and people quitting, and you have a recipe for 'SWTOR is a failure.'

Seriously, what is it going to take for you to call a spade a spade?

When it is actually a spade. I'm not going to call an elephant or a space rocket a spade, because they give no indication they are used for digging.

Failure: a : lack of success
Success: b : favorable or desired outcome
Favorable: c : giving a result that is in one's favor
In one's favor: 2: to one's advantage
Advantage: a : benefit, gain

I could go on until we definte the last word in all of language and in no way could you prove that is is already measured a failure. In fact, using simple defintions of words I can show you why it can't even be a failure to the company. They might label it a failure or be displeased with the situation, but the net result so far is a gain. Until it can be shown that the company is losing money, IE not gaining or benefitting anymore, the only argument we should be having is how much of a success this game has been.

Having to change strategies, reduce staff, or implement any other procedures to keep the game profitable can not speak to the success or failure. Only the bottom line can. You can argue whatever you think are intrinsic values to the industry, compare it to larger successes, but then we are arguing conceptual semantics; the order of magnitude of the results.

So until we determine that it has lost money, or only broke even, this is NOT a failure.

For all the people who don't think personal opinion validates success, which I have already attested to, here is a completely impartial system of judgment. OED Words.

[RoninaThorstone]

Seriously, what is it going to take for you to call a spade a spade?

Empirical proof.

[Rickarus]

I would say that SWTOR wasn't a failure, it simply tried to accomplish too many things for its own good. It did MANY things right, some of which seem to have been adopted by WoW (I'm looking at you, voiced cutscenes while questing). It basically was BioWare doing what they know best, making a strong, single player RPG, but bit off more than they could chew in trying to make it an MMO. I found (and most people I've talked to about it agree) that the leveling process was done exceptionally well. The Class Stories were something I would like to see adopted by other MMOs, as I found them to be a really enjoyable way to grow to care about your character as opposed to a game like WoW, where you feel less connected to your character (although they do seem to have been really trying to change that), and you tend to care more about the NPCs.

[Alvito]

Just like HK stated, its still profitable. If this game starts costing them money to keep active, then its a failure.

Just like our opinions on this will all be different as players it is for the companies envolved. Just making money isn't enough sometimes. Companies want or demand a certain profit % or margin or they shut down projects or stores all the time. This is something you see with retail chains all the time. Even when stores are making cash if they dont hit the magic % the parent company wants they are closed. Failing in business isn't only about not making money but not making enough.

[RoninaThorstone]

Just like our opinions on this will all be different as players it is for the companies envolved. Just making money isn't enough sometimes. Companies want or demand a certain profit % or margin or they shut down projects or stores all the time. This is something you see with retail chains all the time. Even when stores are making cash if they dont hit the magic % the parent company wants they are closed. Failing in business isn't only about not making money but not making enough.

Okay then,

Swtor is not a failure because it has not been shutdown.