Is it fair to consider SW:TOR a failure?

[Eroginous]

Actually, no it doesn't. Turbine said they increased their profits by 300% when they switched to F2P. How can you increase your profits by 300% if they're negative? A switch to a F2P hybrid model does NOT equal unprofitable.

If you're making $100 profit, 300% of that would be $300. If you're making $1,000,000 profit, 300% of that would be 3,000,000. Do you see how using a number like '300%' is not an indicator of success? Until they release actual dollar values showing how much they really profited, and then show how it's considered a 'profit,' then it's completely stupid it assume that '300%' means anything relevant.

For instance, some companies will shift their books around to show a profit when they are really in the negative for a specific time period. It's like if Blizzard was down 5 million subs in one quarter but gained 7 million in the next quarter, showing it as a bi quarterly gain of 2 million subs and not counting the loss or the gain of 5 million. I'm not confident that F2P will bail EA out of the 'no profit zone' because it's clear that there are big problems with SWTOR that their devs are simply not fixing.

There is no evidence that SWTOR is not making profit. Going by personal judgement and assumption doesn't make everything else moot.

The lay-offs you're talking about are mostly what EA does with every game they have ever developed. They hire temps and when the product is released they get rid of the majority of them. As for the product going F2P, the F2P only applies to leveling. Its not like the game itself is now free. You still will have to pay in order to enjoy the game. I don't know how any of these can be used to imply that the game is not making profit.

When you hire temps for a project, and that project is finished, it is common practice to let them go. However, SWTOR is not a 'finished project.' It's a project with long term development, so hiring and letting go 'temps' is a bad business practice and using that as an explanation for lay offs is especially bad logic.

'Hey, where are the guys we had working on class development and pvp balance?'

'Oh, we released the game already, so we let those guys go, they were temps anyway.'

Do you not see how that is kind of a ridiculous conversation for a game that requires constant development? You're basically saying they hired shit employees to do an important task then let them go because they didn't expect to maintain the integrity of the game they are releasing.

Also, the game is soon to be F2P up to level 50, and the only time you have to buy the game is when you expect to pvp more than X number of games in a week or if you plan on raiding (also, the price of the box will go from $60 to $15). Since the majority of the game is spent leveling (and consequently the majority of the quality and fun to be had is also with leveling), then it's safe to consider the game F2P for all intents and purposes.

And really, the logic isn't that 'oh, they went free to play, so they failed.' The logic is that they started off with a business model of 'buy the content and pay a sub fee to continue playing' and then went from that model to one where players get the majority of the game without paying a dime. The part I want you and others to try really hard to understand is that we are not talking about a game that was developed on a low budget with a business model of F2P from the very beginning, with mild popularity and micro transactions easily putting the project in the black.

No, this was a big MMO with a huge franchise backing it by a developer who spent a record amount of money to get this game off the ground, where the only way to sufficiently pay back the investment of hundreds of millions of dollars was to go by the B2P + subs model and meet a minimum number of box sales + subs over the duration of a year or longer, in order to begin to break even.

The game hasn't even been out for a year yet (which was the original estimated length of time the game would have to retain 2 million or more subs in order to be profitable) and they are going F2P with the business model and are down to half a million subs. Not only is it safe to assume they are not making a profit, it's probably safe to assume that they aren't even meeting costs at this point (because the game didn't become free to EA once it went live, they have to pay to keep it going on top of the original costs, you know, server costs, employees, ongoing development).

It's clear to everyone at this point that EA bet the farm on this game and it was a bad bet. My only concern is that the game won't have the budget going into the future to fix the problems it has, let alone keep future content rolling out.

[Profyrion]

Because your computer is representative of all the possible hardware configurations out there right? People had and possibly still have issues running the game of machines most gamers would dream of having, same as people with mid to high end machines struggled, it's simply a optimization issue with the engine.

Those problems are with their computers, not the engine. The engine has been optimized. I refuse to accept that anyone still having problems with it now, 9 months later, has them for any other reason than their computer sucks or they simply don't know WTF they're doing.

[Clymene]

No, this was a big MMO with a huge franchise backing it by a developer who spent a record amount of money to get this game off the ground, where the only way to sufficiently pay back the investment of hundreds of millions of dollars was to go by the B2P + subs model and meet a minimum number of box sales + subs over the duration of a year or longer, in order to begin to break even.

The game hasn't even been out for a year yet (which was the original estimated length of time the game would have to retain 2 million or more subs in order to be profitable) and they are going F2P with the business model and are down to half a million subs. Not only is it safe to assume they are not making a profit, it's probably safe to assume that they aren't even meeting costs at this point (because the game didn't become free to EA once it went live, they have to pay to keep it going on top of the original costs, you know, server costs, employees, ongoing development).

It's clear to everyone at this point that EA bet the farm on this game and it was a bad bet. My only concern is that the game won't have the budget going into the future to fix the problems it has, let alone keep future content rolling out.

These statements need some citations. Most of them are unprovable unless you're a bean counter at EA. The last paragraph directly conflicts with EA's last quarterly report. If you have proof EA lied in their quarterly report I suggest you report that to the SEC.

To the topic at hand, depends how you define a failure. It is a fine game, content comes out too slow to keep me subscribed (where is HK? I'll resub just to get him).

[Redblade]

Those problems are with their computers, not the engine. The engine has been optimized. I refuse to accept that anyone still having problems with it now, 9 months later, has them for any other reason than their computer sucks or they simply don't know WTF they're doing.

I'm sure the people that have issues are comforted by your wisdom, and I did go check support forum, there are still people with issues.

[Psychlon]

I'm sure the people that have issues are comforted by your wisdom, and I did go check support forum, there are still people with issues.

There will never be games without issues... hell even offline games do have tons of bugs.

[Forsedar]

I'm sure the people that have issues are comforted by your wisdom, and I did go check support forum, there are still people with issues.

There are people with issues, but I don't think its a large percentage.

My best friend doesn't have issues. I don't have issues. No one in my guild has issues. My girlfriend doesn't have issues. My brother doesn't have issues. My buddies guild on my server doesn't have issues. I mean, yes its just from what I personally see, but there is bound to be someone with a problem around me- but there isn't.

[Psychlon]

The only issue I had so far with class quests (I played 6 so far, 2x sith warrior, sith inquisitor, bountyhunter, agent and trooper) was with the trooper story (couldn't click a terminal) which has been fixed few days after it occured. Sometimes it's also forseeable that something might happen and to me... if you can solve it it's not really an issue. If you are stucked with it... sure it's really annoying.

[Oerba Yun Fang]

It's far from a failure. It failed to meet expectations for many, but that doesn't make it a failure. If EA/BW can still pull a profit from it, then I call it a success.

I'm not playing it right now but I still go back to it every so often when I feel like playing it. I'll do so much more often when it goes F2P because I won't have to commit $15 for a month.

[Larynx]

Precisely. RIFT never tried to be the WoW killer, though some fans certainly wanted to paint it in that light early on. RIFT does it's thing. That's why it doesn't feel like such a failure.

What part of "You're not in Azeroth anymore" did you not understand?

[Redblade]

There are people with issues, but I don't think its a large percentage.

My best friend doesn't have issues. I don't have issues. No one in my guild has issues. My girlfriend doesn't have issues. My brother doesn't have issues. My buddies guild on my server doesn't have issues. I mean, yes its just from what I personally see, but there is bound to be someone with a problem around me- but there isn't.

I know it isn't, while it was a few months ago now BW them selfs said it was around 5% who had these issues in various degrees, now if we assume 750k players (to not start a OT debate about numbers) then it's 35k players with these issues, or $525000 monthly if they decide to leave over them. So while it's a small issue I'm quite sure the people affected by it and BW don't see it as such nor do I think either of them would find the previous statement I quoted to be correct.

[Forsedar]

Eh, going to the technical forums of games like D3, WoW, Rift, etc... there are people always having issues. While some probably do have honest issues- others have problems that they could most likely fix on their end but are unable to due to lack of knowledge.

[Garehn Vi-Brittania]

Was a great game, just content was to easy. I maxed out full war hero and downed hm denova by the end of may. it got kinda boring breezing through the pve and owning face in pvp so i took a break and eventually it led not playing at all. But i wouldn't say failure since wow is stealing quite a few ideas from it in mop.

[Redblade]

Eh, going to the technical forums of games like D3, WoW, Rift, etc... there are people always having issues. While some probably do have honest issues- others have problems that they could most likely fix on their end but are unable to due to lack of knowledge.

Sure but this isn't about those games, this is about people sporting i7's with top of the line graphics cards and getting less than 30 fps, while no other games cause them issues, it's a recognized issue with the game and can be attributed to the engine, I really don't know why it's up for debate even, BW knows and recognize the issue.

I'm sure it's improved over the time since launch but as far as I could see from the forums it's not fully fixed as people with top end machines are still having these issues.

[Psychlon]

Sure but this isn't about those games, this is about people sporting i7's with top of the line graphics cards and getting less than 30 fps, while no other games cause them issues, it's a recognized issue with the game and can be attributed to the engine, I really don't know why it's up for debate even, BW knows and recognize the issue.

I'm sure it's improved over the time since launch but as far as I could see from the forums it's not fully fixed as people with top end machines are still having these issues.

I stopped playing D3 at lvl 14 because the game would freeze even on lowest settings every 3-4 minutes for 3-4 seconds nonstop. I played it on a new Alienware M17x r4 and I'm not using a 56k modem.

Saying that... while they may have found some issue... it's not going to solve everyones issue with any game.

[Redblade]

I stopped playing D3 at lvl 14 because the game would freeze even on lowest settings every 3-4 minutes for 3-4 seconds nonstop. I played it on a new Alienware M17x r4 and I'm not using a 56k modem.

Saying that... while they may have found some issue... it's not going to solve everyones issue with any game.

Ok...I'll just repost the original quote here as this has nothing to do with the discussion at hand really.

Those problems are with their computers, not the engine. The engine has been optimized. I refuse to accept that anyone still having problems with it now, 9 months later, has them for any other reason than their computer sucks or they simply don't know WTF they're doing.

Using this logic your issues with D3 was simply due to your own incompetence, same as all those people in SWTOR having issues.

[Deleted]

Those problems are with their computers, not the engine. The engine has been optimized. I refuse to accept that anyone still having problems with it now, 9 months later, has them for any other reason than their computer sucks or they simply don't know WTF they're doing.

You seem to be assuming that the whole of the games player base has a decent gaming computer but I’ll bet a very large proportion of the 2M people who bought SWTOR owned off the shelf PCs that were 12 months + in age, and as such found the game barely playable. To many that will have been enough to stop playing within the first month....obviously I can’t put numbers on it but I’ll bet it was a noticeable contributing factor to the server populations thinning out over the first few months after go live.
My PC is not very good but it runs WoW and GW2 on high graphics settings well enough (>40 fps) but on SWTOR on very low settings I still get lots of chop particularly in PvP. My sons laptop runs WoW on medium graphics setting just fine, SWTOR is unplayable.

Couple this with the large drop off that affects most games after go live as people get back to their lives and the extremely large number of servers, then the server populations started looking very thin very quickly so more people left due to low population servers........vicious circle. BW didn’t act quickly enough to address the vicious circle.

There is also the people who left due to just not liking the game for various cosmetic reasons and bugs they just couldn’t live with, as well as the ‘nolifers’ that raced through the content the left due to lack of content (when in most cases no new game would ever satisfy them in terms of amount of content) but I think the number of those are relatively small.

To all of the people who fall into the categories above the game is a failure for those reasons and probably other things too.

What we are left with are the 500K + players who don’t think the game is a failure as they have decent enough PCs (gaming PC or newer off the shelf machines) and like the game enough to ignore the bugs and don’t expect an endless supply of new content to satisfy 30+ hours per week of game play.

All of the above is just my humble opinion of course.

[Profyrion]

You're comparing it to WoW. Your argument is already destroyed.

SWTOR is a new game. It came out December 20, 2011. It requires a modern gaming computer. This fact should not surprise you. This is also not the "fault" of the engine -- it is doing exactly what it was programmed to do. Upgrade your computer.

[Anjerith]

It is fair to say that they aimed high but vastly overestimated the markets need for a Star Wars MMO at this time, especially one running on a Bioware engine.

[RoninaThorstone]

Ok...I'll just repost the original quote here as this has nothing to do with the discussion at hand really.



Using this logic your issues with D3 was simply due to your own incompetence, same as all those people in SWTOR having issues.

I don't get it. Are you saying profyrion and psychlon are the same person?

[Redblade]

I don't get it. Are you saying profyrion and psychlon are the same person?

No, I'm saying that I originally quoted Profyrion with the quote there, and as such Psychlon's post had little to nothing to do with what the discussion was about.