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  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by Ech0544 View Post
    Not enough world immertia, ie all the flash points are all based from the fleet which is just boring, makes the game feel small, despite the awesome looks and designs of some of them.
    Most, but not all. Two of the FPs are on Ilum. However, I do agree with you. Ilum was one of the better questing experiences because it directly led you to False Emperor and Battle of Ilum. Same with Black Talon. There was a REASON to run it. The other FPs feel tacked on with random quests on the Fleet that direct you to your FP portal. Pretty boring. It's another issue that leads directly to lack of World PvP. Granted, most MMOs have a group finder now, but none of them have it for raids. Was there anything more fun than the potential for massive PvP battles in other MMOs that funneled you into one entrance for a raid or dungeon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ech0544 View Post
    Far too many abilitys take far too long to "charge up" ie when you press the button you have to wait for the animation to fully trigger for it to damage, which in alot of cases leaves silly results ie you press smash on a warrior and then 5 mobs come into range, the animation finally finishs and only 3 of the 8 mobs near you get damaged.
    If that's the case, you're only getting a delay in the damage readout. The damage is being done immediately unless there is a casting time. They've already addressed that issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ech0544 View Post
    Combat leaves alot to be wished for, they took out auto attack which pre playing the game i thought was a good thing but with some classes you just end up spamming an ability in place of auto attack, in particular at lower levels, you are forced to use only 1 type of weapon for each class, they even put in vibroswords and staffs but make it impossible to use said weapons to due to class mechanics.
    Disagree on the auto attack. I love the fact that there's no auto attack. I find it a more satisfying experience. Agree on the weapons. Too many restrictions when it comes to weapons.

  2. #382
    I'd actually think it is fair to consider it one of the biggest flops in MMO history, not being a jerk or trying to spark rage, it's simply true.

    Greg Zeschuk- Co founder & VP of Bioware
    Ray Mayzuka- Co founder & CEO president of Bioware
    Daniel Erickson- SWTOR lead designer & creative director
    Stephen Reid- Community Manager on SWTOR
    Rich Vogel- SWTOR executive producer
    Georg Zoeller- Lead combat deisnger for SWTOR
    Alex Freed- Senior storyteller for SWTOR

    ALL of the above have abandoned the game, and around 100 staff have been laid off.

    With all the rumours of the 300 million dollar budget, the hype, the marketing, all the celebrity voice acting, talk about raising the bar for the MMO genre, the STAR WARS IP, the solid track record of Bioware's single player games... The game announced it would be going free to play barely 8 months after release, and 90% of initial servers at release have now been closed.

    All this in under a year, can you name another MMO which has had this much failure in such a small amount of time? I can't.
    Last edited by Blimey; 2012-10-06 at 04:59 PM.

  3. #383
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ech0544 View Post
    Some class's designed around short duration buffs and dots, but not given any way to track those things ie timer bars etc.

    Theres a lack of overall common sense, lessons other mmo's learnt and corrected years ago were in the game at launch and still haven't been addressed ie, you have to wait till level 25, 50% of the way through the game, to get your first mount, which is beyond idiotic and almosts ruins the awesomeness of levelling, there is no logical reason for it and to top it off said mount upon finally getting it blows up everytime you go near any mobs making it near useless when trying to move quickly from place to place with mobs around.
    I have to admit that I struggle with buffs, debuffs and proc icons in TOR, it makes PvP healing more of a challenge for me to the point where I don't think I am working to my best.

    Only a little thing but you can get a low level mount through a legacy perk now, and level 25 is not really 50% of the level experience in terms of time taken to get from level 1-25 and level 26-50 I would say it is more like 25%.

  4. #384
    Do I think it failed? Heck no! When I played at launch, I really enjoyed the story and the quests. I was easily able to do group quests with people. However, it was very demanding with their graphics, and I would get annoyed. I only got to about level 30 I believe, and I am looking forward to FTP. I don't think it is worth the $15 a month, but I am looking forward to finishing up the story!

  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by OneSent View Post
    as did the fans. Players are too impatient nowadays and they don't want to wait around for things to get better, as I'm sure they would have eventually.

    Here's my issue with that....the things that are wrong with TOR, would require the game to be remade (In my opinion) Engine performance being the number 1 factor. My self personally, I didn't have "a lot" of issues with performance, but I have a hand built PC tweaked the way I wanted it (Just for TOR I might add) but I know people who couldn't do Ops, or Ilum, or WZs without hitting their PC in frustration.

    Add that, to the space-on-rails, the pointless "loading" space stations there just to slow you down and make it feel bigger, almost no replay-ability outside class stories, the most pointless style of crafting, and all the things that are other MMO features tacked on (And quite badly at that)

    Yes, things could have improved in time, and yes EA have run far too quickly (not really a surprise after WAR though) but 1st impressions count...and 6 month impressions leave a burn =(
    Last edited by Telila; 2012-10-06 at 05:31 PM.

  6. #386
    Quote Originally Posted by notorious98 View Post
    There's no such thing, if it's profitable. Let me put it to you this way. CEO, CFO, Presidents, they all get paid a salary. Business owners pay themselves a salary. It's all a part of their P&L's. What they get based on profit would be a bonus on top of their salary. Even if the profit is small, it's still going to pay them more than no profit at all. I think you may be thinking of pure revenue, without factoring in rent, deliveries, labor cost, etc. It makes no sense to shut down a store that's turning a profit.
    There are different ways of doing it, but a good exec will evaluate underperforming assets to see if the resources being used there can be redeployed elsewhere. It's not just "Hey, any profit at all is just fine". If I can reallocate resources that are making 2% profit and make 20% profit with them then I'll do that. Obviously I'd look at why an asset isn't performing well before killing it - is it being mismanaged? Is it an old store that people aren't coming into because it's been underinvested in and so looks ratty, etc? But yeah, businesses shut down parts of themselves fairly regularly if they feel those assets can be redeployed to better effect. If you have a single store you should do this too - are you investing inventory in products that underperform? If you can buy, say, $10k worth of bleu widgets and make 5% profit or you can buy $10k worth of red gadgets and make 20%, which will you do? If both make the same gross profit but one lingers on the shelf increasing inventory carrying costs, which will you stock?

    People in business always should look to optimize how they invest their assets and thats a more complex question than simply asking whether there's a profit or not.

  7. #387
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    They made a fatal error in mmo design by attempting to make a wow clone. No new mmo will topple wow or even last very long at all by attempting to be such a similar game as wow.
    There is a fine line between clever and stupid.

  8. #388
    I think part of the problem is that WoW pads it numbers.

    What I mean by this is that 10mil+ number that keeps getting thrown out there. When over 6million people of that are in China, that means that 60% of it's playerbase is in a market that is unavailable to those other games.

    Thus, a true comparison is the 2mil+ that SW:TOR had vs. at the time the around 3.5mil that WoW had. Yet people were still constantly telling people about how SW:TOR failed because it wasn't in the 10mil range, which is completely unrealistic for a game not in China, but 2mil+ for a game in the NA/EU region is completely fine.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 08:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Blimey View Post
    I'd actually think it is fair to consider it one of the biggest flops in MMO history, not being a jerk or trying to spark rage, it's simply true.

    Greg Zeschuk- Co founder & VP of Bioware
    Ray Mayzuka- Co founder & CEO president of Bioware
    Daniel Erickson- SWTOR lead designer & creative director
    Stephen Reid- Community Manager on SWTOR
    Rich Vogel- SWTOR executive producer
    Georg Zoeller- Lead combat deisnger for SWTOR
    Alex Freed- Senior storyteller for SWTOR

    ALL of the above have abandoned the game, and around 100 staff have been laid off.

    With all the rumours of the 300 million dollar budget, the hype, the marketing, all the celebrity voice acting, talk about raising the bar for the MMO genre, the STAR WARS IP, the solid track record of Bioware's single player games... The game announced it would be going free to play barely 8 months after release, and 90% of initial servers at release have now been closed.

    All this in under a year, can you name another MMO which has had this much failure in such a small amount of time? I can't.
    Age of Conan

  9. #389
    I really wanted to like it. I tried hard to.

    And you know what? It was fun if viewed as a single player game that you beat when you hit level 50 and finished the story. It would have been better if they had just made KotOR 3 to be honest.

    In the end what killed it for me was poor server-client communication. What do I mean by that? This video and entire thread explain it better than I could:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GPzIwQeBZI

    http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...227621&page=70

  10. #390
    Quote Originally Posted by anyaka21 View Post
    Age of Conan
    Care to elaborate?

    AoC was developed by a no name company, which leads me to believe their budget will have only been a fraction of that of SWTOR's, and there wasn't nearly as much hype for AoC.

    AoC also only went free to play last year, 3 years after it's initial release date.
    Last edited by Blimey; 2012-10-06 at 09:59 PM.

  11. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by Blimey View Post
    Care to elaborate?

    AoC was developed by a no name company, which leads me to believe their budget will have only been a fraction of that of SWTOR's, and there wasn't nearly as much hype for AoC.

    AoC also only went free to play last year, 3 years after it's initial release date.
    Age of Conan was hyped as a WoW killer, and yeah, for back in that day it was big budget. If memory serves me, they were billing it as the adult WoW because the females were hotter, and they could be half naked. It got seriously panned by everyone that played it.

    The opened early to mid 2008, maxed out at around 700k and in less than 1 year were down to 100k. www.mmodata.net So yes I think that does answer your question "All this in under a year, can you name another MMO which has had this much failure in such a small amount of time?"

    Besides, you are assuming that free-to-play is just as taboo now as it was back then. Clearly, with games like DCO, LotR, EQ, CoH, Champions, etc... all going free to play, staying open and making money, it is clearly a marketing strategy that is working for a lot of games currently on the market. Realistically, WoW is actually the only real main exception on the market, and even they have at times flirted with the whole micro-transactions.

    Edit: More info: developed for around $40-50mil. Opened May 18,2008. Thus they lost 85% of their players in slightly over 6 months.
    multiple sources, but here's one: http://www.alteredgamer.com/age-of-c...-funcom-stock/
    Last edited by anyaka21; 2012-10-06 at 10:26 PM.

  12. #392
    Funny thing is, SWTOR is actually a decent game, AOC was woeful and imbalanced and gear was a complete joke at launch where most the stats didnt' work.

  13. #393
    Quote Originally Posted by Jalek View Post
    Funny thing is, SWTOR is actually a decent game, AOC was woeful and imbalanced and gear was a complete joke at launch where most the stats didnt' work.
    It's a sign of the times. Bugs today are a complete disaster and all developers should be fired on the spot if the game isn't perfect, which wasn't the case just a few years ago. It's a double-edged sword, it's great that people demand perfect products but at the same time maybe one shouldn't expect perfect products. High hopes with low expectations get you real far.

    I wouldn't call SWTOR a failure though, but then again I never expected anything close to greatness - I was positively surprised by the game. I think that generally people who expected perfection and those who enjoy gloating at its lack thereof are those who think of it as a failure. MMOs don't have a constant number of people working on it before and after release, it demands more personel to develop a game from scratch than what is required to maintain it. Just as an example Blizzard laid of a couple hundred employees when they lost those 2-3 million subscribers, because they weren't needed anymore rather than not being able to afford them.

    As long as it stays afloat and makes back the investment then it's fine - a success if you will. F2P multiplied LotRO's revenue by several magnitudes - there's no failure in that.

  14. #394
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post

    blizzard are far more cunning in managing media, their CMs pose as players and covertly direct player responses and opinions.. once you have a feeling or grasp for social dynamics, it is so easy to sway most people becuase they on't think and they always let their emotions rule without their heads.

    [. . .]

    blizzard has their community team in almost EVERY major fansite and game sites, forging opinions, offering perks to editors and writers..and getting their views across.




    Do you have any proof for your claims ? I'm not actually conviced that what you say is true, especially the "CMs posing as players" part seems fishy to me.

  15. #395
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    Step One: Look at the expectations for the game prior to release

    Step Two: See if the game met those expectations

    Conclusion: SWTOR is a failure
    Holy crap that's why Republicans think Obama is a faillure! Your, and by default, their reasoning is lacking.

  16. #396
    I'd say any MMO that loses 80% of its playerbase and goes f2p in a year can be considered a failure...

  17. #397
    I am Murloc! SirRobin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    I'd say any MMO that loses 80% of its playerbase and goes f2p in a year can be considered a failure...
    True but its probably still made money. Just not enough for Johnny's tastes and expectations. Given that it probably still at least broke even, it would probably be better to call TOR a disappointment, rather than an actual failure. It hasn't done that badly. Remember Tabula Rasa shutdown completely and so did APB, for a while. BioWare didn't make a bad game per se. They had valid reasons for their design decisions. It just turned out, for most of their customers at least, that BioWare was simply wrong.

  18. #398
    I am Murloc! Korgoth's Avatar
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    Less then a year after release after spending hundreds of millions and many years in development with a goal of becoming a WoW level success utilizing the Star Wars IP they ended up with plummeting subs, massive layoffs, high profile departures, and are forced to drop the lucrative subscription business model for Free 2 Play. That is a text book failure.
    You, you'll regret what you have done this day, I will make you regret ever being born, you're going to wish you never left your mother's womb, where it was warm and safe and wet, I am going to show you pain you never knew existed, you're going to see a whole new spectrum of pain, like a Rainbow!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=ep65rr-9qjQ Full Pilot Episode! Best thing to come out of Adult Swim!

  19. #399
    Well.. to the issue is not the game itself but the way people see it and... how creator WANTS to see it. The main issue with Old Republic was as many people already said - uber hype... and "wow-killer" sufix people wanted to add to this game. Poeple started to compare things that should not be compared and throw dirt at each other to prove that "their" game is better. Thinking that way leads to very simple solution : Lets all eat our own fissies!! 3 bilion flies cannot be wrong! I will never ever understand this silly way of thinking "I must play this game cause many people play it so iys great and ToR is crap cause only XXX k people plays it" wooooow slow down.... XXX THOUSAND of people play it -> statement: for those people this game is good enough to pay for it, and better than wow/other mmo! Question: does it make WoW fail? No, question: Does it make ToR fail? No! NO NO NO! Its all about PLAYERS! If you enjoy specific game WoW/Roft/Tor/GW2/Conan/Tibia/My Little Ponny online - its your damn law to do so. Play, feel hapy and ignore pety regards "your-game-is-crap-cause-in-my-game-more-people-play". If you play specific game it means only one thing: This game is the best! Why? Because you play it instead of other games which you do not want to play. Its all matter of numbers, but remember - there living human beings behind those numbers...

  20. #400
    What I mean by this is that 10mil+ number that keeps getting thrown out there. When over 6million people of that are in China, that means that 60% of it's playerbase is in a market that is unavailable to those other games.
    One gaming companies marketing demographic has absolutely nothing to do with other gaming companies. Blizzard sells their game in China, so can anyone else. Claiming otherwise is to discount the relevance of the gaming population in China and write them off completely. Do they not pay money? Does that money not go to Blizzard and become fund for further development and maintenance?

    By this logic, it's completely retarded for any other game company to NOT release their game in China. You don't get to accuse Blizzard of anything because they make a business decision that you're not willing to make, and thus profit from it.

    I'd actually think it is fair to consider it one of the biggest flops in MMO history, not being a jerk or trying to spark rage, it's simply true.

    Greg Zeschuk- Co founder & VP of Bioware
    Ray Mayzuka- Co founder & CEO president of Bioware
    Daniel Erickson- SWTOR lead designer & creative director
    Stephen Reid- Community Manager on SWTOR
    Rich Vogel- SWTOR executive producer
    Georg Zoeller- Lead combat deisnger for SWTOR
    Alex Freed- Senior storyteller for SWTOR

    ALL of the above have abandoned the game, and around 100 staff have been laid off.

    With all the rumours of the 300 million dollar budget, the hype, the marketing, all the celebrity voice acting, talk about raising the bar for the MMO genre, the STAR WARS IP, the solid track record of Bioware's single player games... The game announced it would be going free to play barely 8 months after release, and 90% of initial servers at release have now been closed.

    All this in under a year, can you name another MMO which has had this much failure in such a small amount of time? I can't.
    This is about as logical and consistent as any argument regarding SWTOR can get.

    Do I think it failed? Heck no! When I played at launch, I really enjoyed the story and the quests. I was easily able to do group quests with people. However, it was very demanding with their graphics, and I would get annoyed. I only got to about level 30 I believe, and I am looking forward to FTP. I don't think it is worth the $15 a month, but I am looking forward to finishing up the story!
    Let's say you were the only person in the world who likes SWTOR. What happens? The game shuts down and goes offline, leaving you in the cold. One person does not bring in the required revenue to cover the costs of producing and maintaining an MMO. So then, it stands to reason that there is an absolute minimum number of players required to bring in said revenue. Well, you have costs which have been accumulating over 6 years of development and 1 year of release, for which there are definitely NOT enough players in order to bring in the required revenue to cover it all.

    Holy crap that's why Republicans think Obama is a faillure! Your, and by default, their reasoning is lacking.
    The difference between Obama and SWTOR is that Obama can't just do what he wants to. You have a bi partisan committee which has to vote on what the president is allowed to do. For the last four years, the majority party of that committee, the republicans, have intentionally voted against every measure Obama has supported, simply to make him look bad.

    SWTOR is an independent company whom can do whatever they want REGARDLESS of how anyone feels about it. They have it in their power to make EXACTLY the game that the majority of the people playing MMOs would enjoy, and failed to do so of their own accord. No one voted against making that sort of a game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jevlin
    Why? Because fuck you, that's why.

    Every time you have a question that begins with "Why?" that is about what other people prefer to do with their own goddamn time, come back here, and reread the first row of this post. That will ALWAYS be the answer to your question. Have a nice day.

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