Low Dps

[Deleted]

I found that hard to believe, so I did some testing. Turns out you couldn't be further from the truth.

Tested on a raiding target dummy:
2 non-enchanted green ilvl 437 daggers: 27k dps
2 landslide-enchanted legendary daggers: 13k dps

I'm going with the other claims here that your dps output scales heavily with your gear.
I was doing embarassingly low numbers myself in hc instances (dangling on bottom of the meters with a bigger margin than any self-respecting rogue would like to admit), so I did something I wanted to avoid until I had all ilvl 460+ blues: I gemmed and enchanted everything I had.
My damage as assassination rogue is...acceptable now. On trash it's still pretty crappy (unless it's a FoK opportunity) but on bossfights I can get up to 40k now. On a few fights where we get to stay on the boss all the time (last boss of scarlet halls, as an example) I actually ended up as top dps with 50k. It's not that fantastic when compared to what some other classes do, but at least I don't have to be ashamed anymore. I do believe my dps will improve a good bit when I get better daggers (got 1 blue dagger yesterday, now looking for a second one).

So in short: don't wait with gems and enchants until you got better gear. It helps you to close that dps gap until you get the good stuff.

I kinda have the same experience.
Did my first Heroic dungeon yesterday with a guild group, and although I won an item, I could almost cry.
Half of the time I was below the tank, and the elemental shaman did about 1.5-2 times my damage. (he had a lot better gear though, but even then)
Even the shadowpriest, whose ass I normally kick by a fair margin, and who had lesser gear than me, outdps’d me with more than 25%

I was reforged to be hitcapped for heroic dungeons, but the lack of haste really showed. (especially during cleaves, I was kinda dieing inside)
If I had 12 seconds left on SnD or rupture, I had to be careful to have enough combopoints by the time it dropped off. 12s to build 5 frweaking combopoints is kinda ridiculous.
I did at least 50% more DPS at level 85, than what I do now at level 90.
And even if my gear is not up to par yet and largely unenchanted (ilvl 449 atm with 2 ilvl 450 weapons), it is kinda weird to see myself level 5 times, only to see the DPS plummet.
Is a character not supposed to become stronger when they level??

I really hope to see my DPS taking giant leaps every time I get an upgrade, or I will be very pissed at blizzard by the time I step foot into raiding.

[jtstormrage]

Sub is returning the highest single target damage for me.

Forced to keep a Combat spec for Stone Guard. Sub on Feng is great, because of burst windows between Epicentres.

Might try Assassination for Spirit Kings and Elegon though, as it seems best due to positional requirement and AOE.

Damage is below some other classses. Mages and Hunters seem high, but there is always a discrepancy at the moment because some people have better gear than others (I am full blue apart from a dagger)

[Sesshou]

I'm just quoting the numbers I'm seeing, why would I lie about that?
Just try it yourself. Get 2 green daggers and your legendaries and start hacking away at a raiders target dummy.

I never said it was a lie. It is completely possible that you are just doing it wrong. I no longer have green daggers.... why would you think I would keep those when I already mentioned what I was using now. I can however do over 35k easily with my legendary daggers.

Sub is returning the highest single target damage for me.

Forced to keep a Combat spec for Stone Guard. Sub on Feng is great, because of burst windows between Epicentres.

Might try Assassination for Spirit Kings and Elegon though, as it seems best due to positional requirement and AOE.

Damage is below some other classses. Mages and Hunters seem high, but there is always a discrepancy at the moment because some people have better gear than others (I am full blue apart from a dagger)

I am really interested in what is giving you different results (as I would definitely prefer sub). On Feng the only thing it sounds like might be different, is that, on average, I was not having to run out for epicenter between stuns and cloak (I was taking prep for a second cloak, sprinting for sparks hoping I didn't get two) where as it sounds liek you were dodging in and out.

You said 'returning the highest single target damage for me' so I take it you did try assassination on Feng as well? If you don't mind, could you give me an approximate dps number for each? Not trying to compare yours to mine because there is an unknown gear difference, just curious about the range between the two.

I was also looking at WoL (granted theres only so many rogues that have done the fight), but the avg dps for assassination is definitely higher. In fact the lowest assassination number was 57k which was only 2k off the top sub number.

[Matutin]

Well WoL is back again and has some newdata, you guys can go and check by yourself...

Rogues are not doing it bad at all, kinda middle of the pack or above (except for first boss, BF ftw).


I should be worry about how much I like to play on my monk instead of my rogue...

[rayanne]

Looks like rogues don't begin to really become "middle of the pack" until they are ilvl468+. Although some lower geared assassination rogues with the 489 dagger from Stone Guard were doing alright.

Keep on farming heroics.

[NonMagical]

I don't remember the logs I had from earlier in MV, but as Assassination I was doing ~60k dps (+/- 1k dps) sustained against Gara'jal (didn't go in the portals) pretty much every attempt, including our kill. I was top DPS, but I think that is more a reflection on the group I was with. I'm sure other classes could pull much higher than 60k sustained.

This was in 10 man.

Edit: Hah, I forgot about my signature. I suppose it relates to this thread well. Also shows they no longer have that same philosophy (loltankdamage)

Edit2: Just for comparison, my 60k dps, if we had recorded it on World of Logs and posted it, would have been the 7th highest assassination DPS posted for that fight. So 60k seems about the norm. The highest damage was ~64k as of yesterday.

[Deleted]

Well, what is your ilvl? Since you are raiding, I guess it's 460+, which would be in line with the claim that a rogue's dps scales heavily with gear.

And the signature is true, wish they would actually follow it. Why would anyone pick pure dps when he can pick a class with better DPS AND healing/tanking abilities.

[Ryme]

You realize one of the 3 first Gold times had a Rogue in the group, right? BF+KSp absolutely wipes out trash packs, and our single target damage is comparable to anything else. We also bring a good amount of utility to Challenge modes: Shroud, Cloak, Feint, Kick, Gouge, Blind, Sap, Stuns, Tricks, and more that I'm forgetting.

You realise they were brought for AoE stealth, right? Having good aoe once every 2 mins makes you terrible for challenge modes.

One of the quicker changes I'd like to see brought fourth is to have FoK restore most of it's energy cost when it hits 4-5 mobs, that would really help our utterly atrocious AoE.

[Deleted]

Combat or assassination might be the way to go for spirit kings aswell, seeing as there's a lot of movement from the tank and the rest of the raid, and being sub it might sometimes put you out of position to use BS / ambush.
Personally I went combat for this fight as I got the epic fist wep from Gara'lai and such I figured it'd do more damage than sub / assassination with 2x 463 daggers.

Other than that, for Stone guard combat is a nobrainer. And personally I played sub for both feng and gara'lai and it worked pretty well imo. But I guess it also depends on what tactic you use on gara'lai, if you're going into the spirit realm or not, for example.

So far only done 2 pulls on Elegon, so haven't made an opinion yet about that, but I might stay combat there simply due to the weapon advantage I have for that spec atm.

[Nosferato]

put venomous wounds on the crimson tempest would help assa keeping aoe without feeling so energy drained

[NonMagical]

Well, what is your ilvl? Since you are raiding, I guess it's 460+, which would be in line with the claim that a rogue's dps scales heavily with gear.

And the signature is true, wish they would actually follow it. Why would anyone pick pure dps when he can pick a class with better DPS AND healing/tanking abilities.

That night it was like between 472 and 474 I don't remember.

[Exroyal]

So has anyone found out whats the best option this tier, Combat/Sub/Assasination?

Saw Methods Rogue pulling 120k on Stone Guardians so im guessing he went Combat because of Blade Flurry, when popping cd's he got easily 150k+ dps.

[rayanne]

I don't have any mathematical evidence, just browsing through WoL and looking at gear levels of players, but rogues don't catch up until about 468-470, which matches what NonMagical was saying. I think the uptick in damage is going to happen faster than it feels like, as we are trodding through the muck of shittydpsilvl463 land. Just hang on, everyone!

ETA: I am going to suggest combat for stone guard and assassination for the rest. I know sub sims higher but I really just don't feel that much of a difference between it and assassination.

[Playintrafic]

40k isnt low for new 90. 12k and 8k are low for fresh 90s. Anything much below 20k is low.

[Squirl]

You realise they were brought for AoE stealth, right? Having good aoe once every 2 mins makes you terrible for challenge modes.

One of the quicker changes I'd like to see brought fourth is to have FoK restore most of it's energy cost when it hits 4-5 mobs, that would really help our utterly atrocious AoE.

BF alone is good AoE. BF+ KSp is amazing AoE. There are not many pulls over 5 in Challenge modes, so you should not be using FoK often anyways.

The AoE stealth is also central to getting gold in some of those dungeons, such as SPM. Additionally, rogues were brought for their ability to prevent damage to themselves and others, as many of the runs did not have a healer. Preventing damage allows the hybrids to DPS more and off heal less.

In the interview with the world first full gold team, they stated a rogue is not required for full gold, but extremely helpful.

[Ryme]

BF alone is good AoE. BF+ KSp is amazing AoE. There are not many pulls over 5 in Challenge modes, so you should not be using FoK often anyways.

The AoE stealth is also central to getting gold in some of those dungeons, such as SPM. Additionally, rogues were brought for their ability to prevent damage to themselves and others, as many of the runs did not have a healer. Preventing damage allows the hybrids to DPS more and off heal less.

In the interview with the world first full gold team, they stated a rogue is not required for full gold, but extremely helpful.

Blade flurry is not as good as you're giving it credit, it's certainly not a good AoE.

The actual quote was "Rogue was helpful in terms of skipping some packs but not mandatory. Other classes bring more survivability, burst and aoe DPS than rogues so it's a fair tradeoff for gold modes"

[Squirl]

Blade flurry is not as good as you're giving it credit, it's certainly not a good AoE.

You rarely get packs over 5 in challenge modes, especially if you're running without a healer. If you pull more than that, you are dead. BF is great in this situation. KSp+BF will bring you over 100k burst DPS. BF alone should take you to at least 70k. If it's an instance with larger pulls, speccing Assassination will bring your FoK damage up there.

Other classes bring more AoE DPS, sure. Our single target is just as good or better, though. But the margin is not that large, and the utility we bring to challenge modes is awesome:

it's a fair tradeoff for gold modes

Where that utility usually does not apply and ilvl is not capped, such as raids, our DPS will continue to relatively rise as we gear more. I'm ilvl 372 now with a deck to turn in on Sunday. I'm not a liability for my raid. I'm contributing my share of DPS and really shining on fights where I can utilize BF.

Gear up. Your damage issues will be fixed.

[eijin]

just finished mogu'shan vaults last night and i definitely dont feel my DPS is low. 469 ilevel (about average in my guild)
-stone guard we are gods as combat
-feng i was 1-3rd most attempts as combat (my prefered spec) technically sub would probably be ideal here due to phase 2 and having to run away from the boss not decreasing the time of my CDs.
-spiritbinder is harder to judge DPS from as you cant see everyone else's all the time. every DPS was #1 on their own meter (we're all winners!) but when we each linked it we were able to see what everyone did. this was a 20% wipe attempt and i was #1, on the actual kill i scored #1 amung combat rogues, but am not sure what other guildies truely did.
-spirit kings i personally did poorly on, but a good rogue should be able to hold his own, nothing to make us shine or slow us down. we are probably not a good choice for the AoEer as we leave behind posions and/or DoTs.
-elegon probably a mutilate fight, but once again not one i believe we really "shine" in. i was able to stay in for longer which makes up for the fact that i have farther to run than the range does to reset targets. i did this as sub and used the run time to build CP from HoT and refresh my SnD so i didnt lose a huge amount of DPS. as im geared/reforged for combat, switching to sub and taking off the fist weapon put me over hit cap and under exp cap, so i wasnt optimal
-will of the emperor sucks as a melee period. probably a sub fight honestly with alot of short burst being important. you will never shine against the multi DoTers

but honestly rogues have their amazing fights and their average fights, definately not -low- dps.

also: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...14/30/default/ is from this week of raiding, taking the worldoflogs of the top 100 of every class/spec on every fight. overall amung all 6 fights, combat scores 4th amung all DPS specs (many specs not represented as their arent near enough parses of them).

[rayanne]

that spec score is 1) from 25man heroic. and 2) from Sept 7-Sept 18. But thanks for the other info

[eijin]

good point.. i got excited when i saw it was back up and running -.- i guess still not updated for MoP. man, some guilds hit deathwing so hard that the stone guards felt it.