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  1. #81
    Moderator Stommped's Avatar
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    With the addition of item upgrading soon, the list should remain the same, except we should be able to use Smooth gems in place of the Quick gems and still reach the bp.

  2. #82
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stommped View Post
    With the addition of item upgrading soon, the list should remain the same, except we should be able to use Smooth gems in place of the Quick gems and still reach the bp.
    Pretty much, yeah, unless a quick gem combined with 1-2 haste -> crit reforges results in being closer to the 8089 breakpoint. But I agree, none of the gear should change with upgrading, since they should all upgrade evenly.

  3. #83
    Bloodsail Admiral xtramuscle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    Pretty much, yeah, unless a quick gem combined with 1-2 haste -> crit reforges results in being closer to the 8089 breakpoint. But I agree, none of the gear should change with upgrading, since they should all upgrade evenly.
    With the upgrades allowing us to reach both haste BP and hit cap easier, doesn't this mean some items that arnt' currently will become BIS. Like the belt from HC Tsulong, higher item level, with more int should yield more damage if you no longer need HC Stonebound Cinch to meet the HBP?

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  4. #84
    I don't think those two are about the haste BP.

  5. #85
    With regards to item upgrades (talking normal mode stuff atm) is it best to upgrade teir (i wont be getting heroic teir any time soon :<.)

  6. #86
    I'm sure u have forgot the Darkmoon Card because I srsly thinking the Darcmoon Card is unbeaten the best trinket we could have.
    Static Int, 45 seconds inside cd.
    Don't forget, int is our best stat with nearly double the value of crit or haste.
    I'd love nothing better than to do the simulation by my own but chardev couldn't find the darkmoon card and wrathcalcs wouldn't let me import my char from the armory.
    Gray Matter wrote down his calculation about our bis trinket so feel free to take a look.
    (Not allowed to post any links)

    In my opinion our bis trinkets are unbeatable the Darkmoon Card with the Essence of Terror hc on the second place.

    Im sorry for my bad english im not talking/writing fluently.


    Evome

  7. #87
    This BiS list is different than what Zamey has a spreadsheet for. However, he has said he wanted to change some items here and there. Nice list tho.

  8. #88
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evome View Post
    I'm sure u have forgot the Darkmoon Card because I srsly thinking the Darcmoon Card is unbeaten the best trinket we could have.
    Static Int, 45 seconds inside cd.
    Don't forget, int is our best stat with nearly double the value of crit or haste.
    I'd love nothing better than to do the simulation by my own but chardev couldn't find the darkmoon card and wrathcalcs wouldn't let me import my char from the armory.
    Gray Matter wrote down his calculation about our bis trinket so feel free to take a look.
    (Not allowed to post any links)

    In my opinion our bis trinkets are unbeatable the Darkmoon Card with the Essence of Terror hc on the second place.

    Im sorry for my bad english im not talking/writing fluently.


    Evome
    I've already done a Relic of Yu'lon comparison, and it falls behind the two heroic BiS trinkets (cosmos + terror). In fact, heroic Essence of Terror is around 500 DPS more than Relic of Yu'lon, whereas Light of the Cosmos is 1500 DPS above, making it our best trinket by far.

    Quote Originally Posted by xtramuscle View Post
    With the upgrades allowing us to reach both haste BP and hit cap easier, doesn't this mean some items that arnt' currently will become BIS. Like the belt from HC Tsulong, higher item level, with more int should yield more damage if you no longer need HC Stonebound Cinch to meet the HBP?
    Yeah, as huth said, those pieces are BiS purely because they're better optimised for our stats, and the extra socket on the belt means much more crit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drayarr View Post
    With regards to item upgrades (talking normal mode stuff atm) is it best to upgrade teir (i wont be getting heroic teir any time soon :<.)
    Tec's currently updating WrathCalcs to be compatible with item upgrading, so I don't have a definitive answer for you guys in terms of what to upgrade when.

    The guys over at EJ were discussing it earlier, and there's a general consensus that your weapon will be the biggest upgrade you can make, followed by either trinkets or chest/hat/pants. It's probably just best to either save your VP if you wont get capped until there's a set-in-stone answer, or just upgrade whatever you already have from the BiS list. Beyond that, it's at your discretion for the moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by zaiid View Post
    This BiS list is different than what Zamey has a spreadsheet for. However, he has said he wanted to change some items here and there. Nice list tho.
    Not sure who Zamey is, but he's welcome to throw ideas out.
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2012-11-29 at 12:37 AM.

  9. #89
    Moderator Stommped's Avatar
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    With the patch they added an additional normal socket to the Sha touched weapons. You should throw in the heroic Empress mace +320crit (+Legendary gem obv) and see if it surpasses the Heroic Elite dagger.

    You could try the staff of Lei Shi too I guess.
    Last edited by Stommped; 2012-11-29 at 02:15 AM.

  10. #90
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stommped View Post
    With the patch they added an additional normal socket to the Sha touched weapons. You should throw in the heroic Empress mace +320crit (+Legendary gem obv) and see if it surpasses the Heroic Elite dagger.

    You could try the staff of Lei Shi too I guess.
    Where are you seeing this? I don't have an additional socket.

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  11. #91
    Moderator Stommped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    Where are you seeing this? I don't have an additional socket.
    It's added in the new questline for this patch. So it will take like ~6 weeks to get it. But it's still worth considering.

  12. #92
    Trinket uptime:
    LotC HC = 40%
    Relic of Yulon = 30%
    EoT HC = 20%

    stat values:
    Int = 1
    Haste = 0,4
    Crit = 0,46


    EoT nHc= 1152 int, 6908 haste(1381,6) <=> 1152+552,64 = 1704,64
    EoT Hc = 1300 int, 7796 haste(1559,2) <=> 1300+623,68 = 1923,68
    Eot Hc 2/2 = 1400 int, 8398 haste(1679,6) <=> 1400+671,84 = 2071,84
    LotC nHc= 1079 haste, 3236 int(1294,4) <=> 431,6+1294,4 = 1726
    LotC Hc = 1218 haste, 3653 int(1461,2) <=> 487,2+1461,2 = 1948,4
    LotC Hc = 731 haste, 487 crit, 3653 int(1461,2) <=> 292,4+224,02+1461,2 = 1977,62
    LotC Hc 2/2 = 788 haste, 525 crit, 3935 int(1574)<=> 315,2+241,5+1574 = 2130,7
    RoY = 956 int, 3027 int(908,1) <=> 956+908,1 = 1864,1
    RoY 2/2= 1030 int, 3262 int(978,6) <=>1030+978,6 = 2008,6
    stat values:

    EoT nHc= 1704,64
    LotC nHc= 1726
    RoY = 1864,1
    EoT Hc = 1923,68
    LotC Hc= 1948,4
    LotC Hc(crit reforge)= 1977,62
    RoY 2/2 = 2008,6
    EoT Hc 2/2 = 2071,84
    LotC Hc 2/2 = 2130,7

    best in slot trinkets:

    1. LotC Hc 2/2(crit reforge)
    2. LotC Hc 2/2
    3. EoT Hc 2/2
    4. RoY 2/2
    5. LotC Hc(crit reforge)
    6. LotC Hc
    7. EoT Hc
    8. RoY
    9. LotC nHc
    10. EoT nHc

    I hope my list will save you guys from breaking your head like I did.
    Last edited by Evome; 2012-11-29 at 12:42 PM.

  13. #93
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    stat values according to moonkin guide in sticky :
    Critical Strike: 0.67
    Haste: 0.54 (post breakpoint)


    stat values in the post above:
    Haste = 0,4
    Crit = 0,46

    which stats values are correct?

  14. #94
    Gray Matter wrote:

    Stat Weights:
    To rank these items I used the following weights Intellect - 1.000 Spirit/Hit Rating - 0.43, Spellpower - 0.84, Haste Rating - 0.40, Crit Rating - 0.46, Mastery Rating - 0.40. These rates were generated using SimulationCraft and a T14 Normal mode gear level, but there are two things you should know about them before you run wild with them.

    First, Spirit/Hit is worth significantly more then 0.43 when you are below the hit cap. However, If I use it's true value it does strange things to the list and over emphasizes items with spirit and hit. To manage this I've set Spirit/Hit's value equal to an average of Crit and Master's value. I do this because any excess hit is likely to be reforged as Crit, Mastery or Haste and gives the user a better understanding of the item's value.

    Second, the weights I use may over value Haste in some situations. In the first simulation I ran, ranked the stats the way we traditionally have by using haste enchants and gems, and reforging to haste whenever possible. The results of that simulation were surprising in that it ranked Haste behind both Mastery and Crit. After that I ran several more simulations changing which gear I used and how I valued the stats in terms of reforging and such. In these following simulations, haste ranked much higher and the total DPS in these simulations were significantly lower then the DPS in the original simulation.

    Since, I didn't find a new gear combination or reforging strategy that resulted in higher DPS then the original strategy, I'm assuming that that first simulation was a bit of a fluke. What probably happened is that I hit a Haste Break Point in a strange way with the addition of several new haste procs available to us in the new raid instance. I'm not going to recommend you change your gearing strategy based on this at all, but you may want to do more analysis of your own gear once we spend a few weeks in the Dragons Soul to see if there are some ways to tweak your DPS.


    In case, these stats are wrong and yours are right:

    EoT nHc= 1898,06
    EoT Hc = 2141,96
    Eot Hc 2/2 = 2306,98
    LotC nHc = 1877,06
    LotC Hc = 2118,92
    LotC Hc(crit reforge)= 2182,23
    LotC Hc 2/2/crit reforged)= 2351,27
    RoY = 1864,1
    RoY 2/2 = 2008,6


    The stats are higher,surely, but the result is the same.

  15. #95
    once we spend a few weeks in the Dragons Soul to see if there are some ways to tweak your DPS.
    I think you used 4.3 stat weights originally.

  16. #96
    Right now I recognized it^^ thanks.
    The stats beneath are the correct one and with them we get the same result(bis trinkets)

    Ps: I think he only forgot to update the whole text because he wrote about T14 content.

  17. #97
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evome View Post
    Right now I recognized it^^ thanks.
    The stats beneath are the correct one and with them we get the same result(bis trinkets)

    Ps: I think he only forgot to update the whole text because he wrote about T14 content.
    Another thing to remember, is that Essence of Terror allows us to reach the 12517 haste breakpoint when it procs, which should account for the slightly larger gap between Relic of Yu'lon and itself. To hit the 16879 haste breakpoint while the Essence of Terror proc is up requires reforging into 381 more haste and results in a DPS increase of 56, however, this is impractical considering we wont always get the use of this benefit, and thus wont impact the current BiS list.

    Also, I did my own comparison of the three trinkets and used the following marginal stat changes from the H BiS list itself:

    Int: 1.00
    Crit: 0.50
    Mast: 0.41
    Haste:: 0.30

    This gives the following results for the trinkets (optimised):

    Relic of Yu'lon: 2008.6 (upgraded twice)
    Essence of Terror: 1881.1 (upgraded twice)
    Light of the Cosmos: 2247.8 (upgraded twice, haste -> crit reforge)

    Upon seeing these results I was surprised, so I decided to find where the next haste breakpoint was, which occurs at 12517 (thanks to Targartou's spreadsheet), which we reach very comfortably with the Essence of Terror proc. This lead me to believe WrathCalcs already knew the haste breakpoint had been reached with the proc, and had adjusted DPS numbers accordingly.

    Hope this clears things up a bit!

    *DISCLAIMER*: before anyone picks on my stat weights, please keep in mind these values are completely dynamic and change with your gear! These stat weights only apply to the H BiS list on the first page, and will not necessarily apply to you. Please take these values with a grain of salt.
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2012-11-29 at 08:19 PM.

  18. #98
    Either way, Relic of Yu'lon is a fairly safe pick for upgrading unless you're in an absolute top guild.

  19. #99
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Either way, Relic of Yu'lon is a fairly safe pick for upgrading unless you're in an absolute top guild.
    Yeah definitely. Relic of Yu'lon > (N) Essence of Terror from what I can see, so it's one of your safest non-BiS pieces that you can upgrade and not have to replace for quite a while.

    Also, doing a comparison between Kri'tak vs. Regail's with Kri'tak having a new prismatic socket and both weapons double upgraded:


    Kri'tak vs. Regail's

    Int: 546 vs. 0
    SP: 0 vs. 572
    Mastery: 0 vs. 266
    Crit/Haste/Spirit: 250 vs. 0

    So the stat differences will be 546 Int + 250 C/H/S vs. 266 Mastery and 572 SP. Since Crit is roughly worth 2.23 in the H BiS scenario and Mastery is 1.83, by eyeballing it looks like Kri'tak should win by a short amount. Equipping Kri'tak on WrathCalcs and adding 320 crit manually, we get a DPS jump of about 500.

    I'll update the OP once I can link to a Kri'tak that has the blue socket. Should give enough confirmation to prove it does exist, and then our DPS should be nearing the 110k mark.
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2012-11-30 at 01:33 AM.

  20. #100
    Moderator Stommped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    Yeah definitely. Relic of Yu'lon > (N) Essence of Terror from what I can see, so it's one of your safest non-BiS pieces that you can upgrade and not have to replace for quite a while.

    Also, doing a comparison between Kri'tak vs. Regail's with Kri'tak having a new prismatic socket and both weapons double upgraded:


    Kri'tak vs. Regails

    Int: 546 vs. 0
    SP: 0 vs. 572
    Mastery: 0 vs. 266
    Crit/Haste/Spirit: 250 vs. 0

    So the stat differences will be 546 Int + 250 C/H/S vs. 266 Mastery and 572 SP. Since Crit is roughly worth 2.23 in the H BiS scenario and Mastery is 1.83, by eyeballing it looks like Kri'tak should win by a short amount. Equipping Kri'tak on WrathCalcs and adding 320 crit manually, we get a DPS jump of about 500.

    I'll update the OP once I can link to a Kri'tak that has the blue socket. Should give enough confirmation to prove it does exist, and then our DPS should be nearing the 110k mark.
    Can you try the staff too?

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