Hold up, WTF happened to rogues?

[Samanth]

I challenge anyone, ANYONE who's complaining about rogues, to pm me their battle tag (US) so I can see if they have any glad achievements out of the seasons they would 1 shot people and if you don't it just means you can't play a rogue therefore your crying about them is invalid.

Rogues are fine at the moment they're not meant to be a high damage class they're there for utility and control, you're lucky they even have the strong damage they have atm. I've never seen so many people crying about a strong class in my life you're literally the definition of retarded if you think rogues are shit atm

Done with the double posting? Show me your armory. Wanna see the glad titles you had!

[Guthix]

Hi welcome to the beginning of every xpac. I'm a priest.

[Linneth]

I challenge anyone, ANYONE who's complaining about rogues, to pm me their battle tag (US) so I can see if they have any glad achievements out of the seasons they would 1 shot people and if you don't it just means you can't play a rogue therefore your crying about them is invalid.

Rogues are fine at the moment they're not meant to be a high damage class they're there for utility and control, you're lucky they even have the strong damage they have atm. I've never seen so many people crying about a strong class in my life you're literally the definition of retarded if you think rogues are shit atm

I must have missed the time when Rogues shifted from the Assassin archetype to a Bishop of debuffs instead of buffs.

[Dcruize]

Rogues are fine at the moment they're not meant to be a high damage class they're there for utility and control

I asked you this before but you just ignored it and double posted. What's the advantage of a rogue being a utility and control class when other classes have the same level of utility and control?

To compare with warriors;

20sec CD kidney shot vs 20sec AOE shockwave
3min blind vs 1min fear
Kick vs pummel + gag order + 40sec CD AoE silence *edit: raging too hard, meant interupt*
Gouge vs charge stuns
2min Cloak vs 25sec spell reflect + 1min mass spell reflect
1min Cheap shots vs a pain-train of pressure

Why would you take a rogue if you had the choice between a rogue and a warrior? Their single smokebomb?

[redderz1]

Rogues are fine at the moment they're not meant to be a high damage class they're there for utility and control, you're lucky they even have the strong damage they have atm. I've never seen so many people crying about a strong class in my life you're literally the definition of retarded if you think rogues are shit atm

Says who exactly? Where and when did anyone ever say that rogues were "not meant to be a high damage class"? As a pure DPS class what else is there for them to do? Which of the other pure dps classes arent meant to do good damage? Mages? Being that mages have just as much utility and arguably more CC than rogues surely mages should do less damage than rogues currently?

You are talking absolute nonsense.

[Norzuk]

I have seen rogues at the end of a bg with under 1mil dmg total vs maybe 5+ mil for the top players, not sure if they suddenly can't play their class or their nerf was that great, both maybe? I dunno but for once it's nice to see them not being able to appear behind u and finish u in 3 seconds.

It has being like that since I started playing this game in may 2005. Rogues used to ambush+backstab a cloth to death. Warriors always countered rogues, hunters and rogues were a matter of who started the fight. Rogues has being always a class to kill weak foes, get you ungarded, kill that healer in the back, stunlock a oponent so you fellows can finish off, rogues are not meant to be a killing machine, although you can be if you play it right.

However Blizz made a mistake of placing a legendary so easy to get that they needed to balance classes around that. Legendaries are meant to be HARD to get, cause once you get you are GOD, and it SHOULD be like that.

A game where high end gear matters and pvp is based around that shouldn't have people complaining about someone who is stronger because they have gear. Otherwise, go play chess, i heard it is pretty balanced.

[Riekul]

I asked you this before but you just ignored it and double posted. What's the advantage of a rogue being a utility and control class when other classes have the same level of utility and control?

To compare with warriors;

20sec CD kidney shot vs 20sec AOE shockwave
3min blind vs 1min fear
Kick vs pummel + gag order + 40sec CD AoE silence
Gouge vs charge stuns
2min Cloak vs 25sec spell reflect + 1min mass spell reflect
1min Cheap shots vs a pain-train of pressure

Why would you take a rogue if you had the choice between a rogue and a warrior? Their single smokebomb?

As a warrior who no longer participates in pvp, I ask where was your public outcry at the end of Cataclysm when warriors were literally, the worst class to bring for pvp (outside of RBG flag carriers)? I sympathize with you, but using my own experiences as a judge, you may possibly be mis-representing how bad rogues are right now. When warriors are nerfed next patch, and rogues return to their position at the top of the heap, you can breathe a content sigh of relief, and I will continue to not give a shit. Everyone wins...

[Dcruize]

As a warrior who no longer participates in pvp, I ask where was your public outcry at the end of Cataclysm when warriors were literally, the worst class to bring for pvp (outside of RBG flag carriers)? I sympathize with you, but using my own experiences as a judge, you may possibly be mis-representing how bad rogues are right now. When warriors are nerfed next patch, and rogues return to their position at the top of the heap, you can breathe a content sigh of relief, and I will continue to not give a shit. Everyone wins...

I wowquit during S10 and came back for 5.0.1, but I've always supported the underclass since S1 - I truly wish wow was a balanced game. No class deserves to be weak, regardless of how faceroll they may have been in previous seasons. Rogues will be fine I'm sure (they're not terrible now, just weak compared to the alternatives), but getting rolled by teams with bad warriors, then seeing deluded warriors claim it's just a l2p issue.... sry have to vent to stay sane

[Norzuk]

I asked you this before but you just ignored it and double posted. What's the advantage of a rogue being a utility and control class when other classes have the same level of utility and control?

To compare with warriors;

20sec CD kidney shot vs 20sec AOE shockwave
3min blind vs 1min fear
Kick vs pummel + gag order + 40sec CD AoE silence
Gouge vs charge stuns
2min Cloak vs 25sec spell reflect + 1min mass spell reflect
1min Cheap shots vs a pain-train of pressure

Why would you take a rogue if you had the choice between a rogue and a warrior? Their single smokebomb?

Rogue and warriors are two dif classes, ans seeing your posts I see you are biased towards rogues, seems to be your favorite since you stated you played both.

Plz, do not compare, that only shows how bad you are. Kidney shot isn't the only stun rogues have, stop crying about shockwave. I do agree rogues need some balance features.

- You have SAP (this is utility)
- Warriors doesn't have AoE silence, you know nothing about warriors, I'm starting to doubt you ever played one.
- Your garrote silences, quit whining plz.
- Cloak of shadows wipe dots you already have, while spell reflect only works towards the first spell it receives including mage's pet and mirrors, so it isn't only flowers.
- You have sprint, shadow step, cripling poison (dispelable but also spammable) which is the most slowing pain in this game.
- You have DISMANTLE, which you said is better than disarm on a previous post. OMG... i'll stop right here.

[Deleted]

Rogue and warriors are two dif classes, ans seeing your posts I see you are biased towards rogues, seems to be your favorite since you stated you played both.

Plz, do not compare, that only shows how bad you are. Kidney shot isn't the only stun rogues have, stop crying about shockwave. I do agree rogues need some balance features.

- You have SAP (this is utility)
- Warriors doesn't have AoE silence, you know nothing about warriors, I'm starting to doubt you ever played one.
- Your garrote silences, quit whining plz.
- Cloak of shadows wipe dots you already have, while spell reflect only works towards the first spell it receives including mage's pet and mirrors, so it isn't only flowers.
- You have sprint, shadow step, cripling poison (dispelable but also spammable) which is the most slowing pain in this game.
- You have DISMANTLE, which you said is better than disarm on a previous post. OMG... i'll stop right here.

While I'm not a fan of class v class comparison, you can't really accuse him of being biased or ignorant of the warrior class and then go and say : "cripling poison (dispelable but also spammable) which is the most slowing pain in this game." Yeah, that 50% is sure a slowing pain or ignore that Dismantle costs 25 energy while Disarm is free...

[Norzuk]

While I'm not a fan of class v class comparison, you can't really accuse him of being biased or ignorant of the warrior class and then go and say : "cripling poison (dispelable but also spammable) which is the most slowing pain in this game." Yeah, that 50% is sure a slowing pain or ignore that Dismantle costs 25 energy while Disarm is free...

What? You wanted dismantle to be free? Removing not only the main weapon but also the off-hand isn't enough? Removing a healer's shield isn't a big deal?

Cripling is a pain cause it's useless to dispell, you are going to get it again anyways.

Rogues are a dif class from warriors, dif mech. Rogues choose when and where to fight. If you don't wanna die, you wont, rogues and druids can always get away.

[Deleted]

Anyways, semi-long post explained "WTF happened to rogues" :

-Talents :Very little work in the talent trees : 6 talents are somehow new, 6 are pretty much old skills and 6 are old skills/talents brought back. The talent trees make no sense. While with most classes you got them divided by themes (shadow/holy, frost/fire/arcane) and/or departments (survivability, mobility, self-healing, etc.) with rogues you got a weird mix. Deadly Throw mixed up with other talents, two non-lethal poisons in different tiers (only class that can nullify a talent by taking another I think), last tier being a total joke, etc. Blizzard was very lazy when it came to design the talents. It's not very exciting to get TBC/Wrath trees skills, improve them a little and try to present them as new.

-Glyphs : Same as with talents, very lazy work from Blizzard. Only 30% of the glyphs are actually new...and some of them are actually old skills/talents turned into glyphs. With 50% of the glyphs being exactly the same as in the past, rogues are stuck with glyphs like Glyph of Ambush or Glyph of Crippling Poison, which are incredibly bad right now. Some other classes got tons of interesting glyphs for both PVE and PVP, plus flavour glyphs which are also nice. Rogues got Glyph of Detection and Glyph of Disguise which was hotfixed nerfed as soon as rogues were...having fun with it. Amazing. This leads to a lack of choice, which is what they wanted to prevent by removing mandatory glyphs.

-Three different(?) specs : All three specs are getting more and more similar in PVE. All three use Slice and Dice, Rupture and a instant damage finisher (At least Envenom has an important buff). Combat doesn't really feel swashbuckler-like at all, Subtlety feels like a warrior or something and Assassination is very, very dull. Subtlety needs to keep up too many buffs, Assassination has barely anything to look for, Combat is very boring outside CDs, etc. It doesn't help that a lot of damage comes from passive sources, especially for assassination with deadly poison being the top damaging ability.

-Nerfs : Subtlety deserved some nerfs, for sure, but it was overboard. The class got hit very, very hard and both the mobility and survivability are quite weak right now. Damage is fine...every 3 minutes.

-Old promises : GC talked about rogues moving away from ramp up time, from passive damage and to make all three specs different. Due to being lazy, all those things have just gotten worse. The best part is how he said that the class design was perfect and not much had to be modified. Then why break what worked...


So, to sum up, Blizzard has been incredibly lazy with rogues this expansion (yet again). They can buff the damage of backstab by 700% if they want so the class is competitive in PVP, but the design will still be very lazy.

[Tokas]

Rogues are always weak out of the door in a new expansion. They are one of the classes (warriors being the other main example) that scale rapidly with gear. You'll be weak till the end of the first tier then come back to the top of the pile again, worry not.

well fuck me then, by this logic, 25 man raids will be doable by 2 warriors at the end of this xpac

[Deleted]

What? You wanted dismantle to be free? Removing not only the main weapon but also the off-hand isn't enough? Removing a healer's shield isn't a big deal?

Cripling is a pain cause it's useless to dispell, you are going to get it again anyways.

Rogues are a dif class from warriors, dif mech. Rogues choose when and where to fight. If you don't wanna die, you wont, rogues and druids can always get away.

Disarm has the same effect as Dismantle. Are you sure you are actually playing a warrior yourself? Nowhere I said I want Dismantle to be free, just pointing out that for a class it costs resources, for the other is free.

Your last statement only applies to world PVP and random battlegrounds. In arena or even RBGs you can't wait in stealth until someone is low. It just doesn't work like that.

[willtron]

haha that is how i feel when rogues whine over not being able to do PVE damge, well you are a pvp'ish class, so i love you try to tell warriors how they should reroll a proper class, please go tell that to people who play rogues in PVE

even though Rogues have been around since WoWs conception and back when WoW was a pure PvE game. Yes totally a PvP class.

[die4moneh]

Play a monk and then feel how "shity" some class'es compared to your class is.
In arena's ofc.

[Norzuk]

Disarm has the same effect as Dismantle. Are you sure you are actually playing a warrior yourself? Nowhere I said I want Dismantle to be free, just pointing out that for a class it costs resources, for the other is free.

Your last statement only applies to world PVP and random battlegrounds. In arena or even RBGs you can't wait in stealth until someone is low. It just doesn't work like that.

So, only arena matters?

Dude, both classes have diferent mechanics, some abilities are free now for warriors, other cost rage, but only 1-2 generate rage. Some cost 60 rage, others 30 rage. Some that used to cost like 5 rage, they removed since there was rage getting out of the window in the past. Now it just doesnt work like that.

I'm just saying that comparing rogues to warriors is dumb.

[Deleted]

So, only arena matters?

Dude, both classes have diferent mechanics, some abilities are free now for warriors, other cost rage, but only 1-2 generate rage. Some cost 60 rage, others 30 rage. Some that used to cost like 5 rage, they removed since there was rage getting out of the window in the past. Now it just doesnt work like that.

I'm just saying that comparing rogues to warriors is dumb.

Things are much, much harder to balance or even take seriously outside competitive PVP. Great, the rogue CLOS'ed and Vanished to not be killed by defending a node in a random battleground. Is this really important? To miss a KB?

As I said, I'm not a fan of comparing skills, but you were talking about Dismantle like if it was the best skill ever and it has the same effect as Disarm and it seems that you didn't know. And you accused someone of being biased and asked him if he had even played warrior.

[Wow]

What? You wanted dismantle to be free? Removing not only the main weapon but also the off-hand isn't enough? Removing a healer's shield isn't a big deal?

Just an fyi all disarms remove both weapons now welcome to mop. Also a healer won't care that you can remove there shield disarms take no stats the only class that cares that it does that is warriors and its because it prevents shieldwall.

---------- Post added 2012-10-09 at 03:23 PM ----------

So, only arena matters?

Dude, both classes have diferent mechanics, some abilities are free now for warriors, other cost rage, but only 1-2 generate rage. Some cost 60 rage, others 30 rage. Some that used to cost like 5 rage, they removed since there was rage getting out of the window in the past. Now it just doesnt work like that.

I'm just saying that comparing rogues to warriors is dumb.

Nothing an arms or fury warrior does costs 60 rage. Arms only slam and heroic strike cost rage and its only 30 all utility that use to cost rage is now free.

You must not even play a warrior in mop lol.

[Norzuk]

Just an fyi all disarms remove both weapons now welcome to mop. Also a healer won't care that you can remove there shield disarms take no stats the only class that cares that it does that is warriors and its because it prevents shieldwall.

---------- Post added 2012-10-09 at 03:23 PM ----------


Nothing an arms or fury warrior does costs 60 rage. Arms only slam and heroic strike cost rage and its only 30 all utility that use to cost rage is now free.

You must not even play a warrior in mop lol.

I'm playing a warrior in MOP, however lots of things changed, i confess I didn't realize now that all disarms remove weapon and shield. THIS IS DUMB. And shield matter for armor pourposes, ok, colossus smash, but it makes some difference in the end.

To start I agree rogues need some work, you can't tell what is what anymore, but in no way they lost their utility. Compairing rogues to warrior isn't the way to go. Otherwise we will start a comparison with warriors and druids (won't go anywhere), warriors and DKs (also won't go anywhere). The MS nerf was came with all classes wanting to have that debuff, blizz listened and ended up nerfing it.

All classes are losing their uniqueness just because players compare. We MUST stop this! Do you really want to boost your class, in this case rogues. I DO AGREE, but please stop compairing two diferent classes.