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  1. #1

    Frost 2H gemming

    So...320 haste in yellow sockets and 80 str and 160 haste in red ones? It feels so weird, but simulationcraft actually supports it...anyone on the matter?

  2. #2
    I'm pretty confused on what to do myself!
    With the new updated askmrrobot.com they do indeed take Haste over Strength, Was actually coming here myself to see what other DK's had to say about it

  3. #3
    A couple of people on Elitist Jerks theorized something similar a couple weeks ago, although the front page of their Frost DK thread has not been updated to reflect it. Anyway, their new thoughts on gems are:

    Red: Expertise + Haste
    Yellow: 320 Haste
    Blue: Hit + Haste

    I believe the thought process is that since secondary stats are available at twice the amounts on gems, it ends up being worth more in stat weights. 160 strength is not enough to outweigh 320 haste, at least until some sort of cap is reached. And I'm sure we won't be reaching that this tier. It IS hard to get used to though; should we really put hit/exp in gems like EJ suggests? You can always reforge for that, but cannot reforge into more strength. That's where my head hits a wall when pondering it.


    Personally I'm leaning towards strength and haste gems, and reforging for the hit and exp caps.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldhandz View Post
    A couple of people on Elitist Jerks theorized something similar a couple weeks ago, although the front page of their Frost DK thread has not been updated to reflect it. Anyway, their new thoughts on gems are:

    Red: Expertise + Haste
    Yellow: 320 Haste
    Blue: Hit + Haste

    I believe the thought process is that since secondary stats are available at twice the amounts on gems, it ends up being worth more in stat weights. 160 strength is not enough to outweigh 320 haste, at least until some sort of cap is reached. And I'm sure we won't be reaching that this tier. It IS hard to get used to though; should we really put hit/exp in gems like EJ suggests? You can always reforge for that, but cannot reforge into more strength. That's where my head hits a wall when pondering it.


    Personally I'm leaning towards strength and haste gems, and reforging for the hit and exp caps.
    320 stat points spent on Hit or Exp with gems is 320 stat points you dont have to reforge to...meaning you can reforge to more haste or mastery, whichever is better. Its certainly not clear cut and dry as it was before. You need to consider the whole picture.

  5. #5
    A couple of people on Elitist Jerks theorized something similar a couple weeks ago, although the front page of their Frost DK thread has not been updated to reflect it. Anyway, their new thoughts on gems are:

    Red: Expertise + Haste
    Yellow: 320 Haste
    Blue: Hit + Haste

    I believe the thought process is that since secondary stats are available at twice the amounts on gems, it ends up being worth more in stat weights. 160 strength is not enough to outweigh 320 haste, at least until some sort of cap is reached. And I'm sure we won't be reaching that this tier. It IS hard to get used to though; should we really put hit/exp in gems like EJ suggests? You can always reforge for that, but cannot reforge into more strength. That's where my head hits a wall when pondering it.


    Personally I'm leaning towards strength and haste gems, and reforging for the hit and exp caps.
    320 stat points spent on Hit or Exp with gems is 320 stat points you dont have to reforge to...meaning you can reforge to more haste or mastery, whichever is better. Its certainly not clear cut and dry as it was before. You need to consider the whole picture.
    Actually, this is incorrect.
    Strength is still your best stat, and if you didn't know: with normal mode raiding tier / enchants / proper reforges, you will actually LOSE damage by not gemming as such.
    Even in my 463 gear + Tier hands (496) + rep gear, I still have hit + expertise cap (170 cape hit enchant ofc) and I compared both styles, I lose dps gemming as you mentioned.

  6. #6
    Herald of the Titans Varyk's Avatar
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    Ill still be gemming strength.

  7. #7
    @Varyk, you should be.
    Strength > Hit = Expertise > Haste > Mastery (or crit) > crit (or mastery) depending.
    A lot of conflicting simulations.

  8. #8
    High Overlord Earthrot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frstypwn View Post
    @Varyk, you should be.
    Strength > Hit = Expertise > Haste > Mastery (or crit) > crit (or mastery) depending.
    A lot of conflicting simulations.
    This means that 1 strength > 1 haste. However the new gems have twice the budget on secondary stats; and most often 2 haste > 1 strength, according to sims. You're confusing stat priorities with stat weights.

  9. #9
    Actually, 1 strength (1.00 DPS according to sims) > 2 haste (0.45~ DPS per.)

  10. #10
    High Overlord Earthrot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frstypwn View Post
    Actually, 1 strength (1.00 DPS according to sims) > 2 haste (0.45~ DPS per.)
    I've seen this differ quite alot based on gear; as for what I've seen for higher gear levels 2 haste starts to surpass 1 strength; but for lower gear levels (463-ish) strength could indeed be better than haste... as you mentioned

    More to the point though: I really like the new gem system; makes gemming a lot less straight-forward and adds something new to simcraft for

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Frstypwn View Post
    Actually, 1 strength (1.00 DPS according to sims) > 2 haste (0.45~ DPS per.)
    This is incorrect.

    2H Frost, in order to get the most out of their gems should be gemming 160 Expertise 160 Haste in Reds, 320 Haste in Yellows, and 160 Hit 160 Haste in Blues.

    This allows you to reforge away most of your Expertise and Hit to haste and or crit.

    Strength is still your top stat however with the gemming changes any stat where 2 of that stat>1 Strength you'll want to be gemming secondary stats. Haste is worth about 0.6 of a Strength and hit and expertise are higher in value then strength when under the cap.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Dossou View Post
    This is incorrect.

    2H Frost, in order to get the most out of their gems should be gemming 160 Expertise 160 Haste in Reds, 320 Haste in Yellows, and 160 Hit 160 Haste in Blues.

    This allows you to reforge away most of your Expertise and Hit to haste and or crit.

    Strength is still your top stat however with the gemming changes any stat where 2 of that stat>1 Strength you'll want to be gemming secondary stats. Haste is worth about 0.6 of a Strength and hit and expertise are higher in value then strength when under the cap.

    Yeah, this is what I was getting at. But as far as I know, this strategy is based off of stat weights at 509 ilvl gear. I think the big question is: during raid progression while we are wearing anywhere from 463 to 490~ ilvl gear, is haste worth 0.6? That's the key factor imo.

  13. #13
    Simcraft doesn't have any heroic dungeon profiles; the lowest one available is T14N. I ran the stats earlier today with 10k iterations.

    Both specs should gem expertise and hit to cap. After that, DW frost should gem strength and 2H frost should gem haste. Of course you should take socket bonuses into account too, just multiply each stat by its weight to get the total value.

    Note that this is before reforging-- expertise and hit are your most valuable stats on gems, and gems are the cheapest way to get them. Ideally you want to hit your expertise and hit caps via gems, not reforging or enchants.

    DW Frost T14N
    Str: 3.52
    Exp/Hit: 2.20
    Mastery: 1.50
    Haste: 1.45
    Crit: 1.13

    2H Frost T14N
    Str: 2.86
    Exp/Hit: 1.99
    Haste: 1.55
    Crit: 1.13
    Mastery: 0.83

    If you really want to be accurate, import your character into simcraft and run the scaling tests yourself.
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2012-10-01 at 10:13 PM.

  14. #14
    This is incorrect.

    2H Frost, in order to get the most out of their gems should be gemming 160 Expertise 160 Haste in Reds, 320 Haste in Yellows, and 160 Hit 160 Haste in Blues.

    This allows you to reforge away most of your Expertise and Hit to haste and or crit.

    Strength is still your top stat however with the gemming changes any stat where 2 of that stat>1 Strength you'll want to be gemming secondary stats. Haste is worth about 0.6 of a Strength and hit and expertise are higher in value then strength when under the cap.
    Depends.
    With Engineering (expecting people have it since it works with PoF, and will be great with our 4pc for T14) will be dependent on how Simulations show each stat.
    Also, yes Expertise / Hit, but not haste.

    DW Frost T14N
    Str: 3.52
    Exp/Hit: 2.20
    Mastery: 1.50
    Haste: 1.45
    Crit: 1.13
    Why did you post DW? Dual-wield isn't even useful unless you don't have a 2H of the same gear level.

  15. #15
    Just like I posted in the other thread, DW is completely viable everywhere, and lots of encounters have significant AE/cleave.

    Also you may have some inflated idea that DW frost is complete garbage-- it isn't. It sims 1.50% below 2H frost in T14H. They are extremely close.
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2012-10-01 at 10:28 PM.

  16. #16
    Just like I posted in the other thread, DW is completely viable everywhere, and lots of encounters have significant AE/cleave.
    To make up for the 2-4k DPS loss in single target it's not worth it.
    that 2-4k of single target loss is not worth slight AoE advantages, and like I said in most scenarios warriors will be receiving the 1h weapons, and Dks receiving the 2h.

  17. #17
    No. It's a 1.5% difference.

    Actually, now that I re-ran the sims and refreshed my memory about how close they really are, I expect that most raiding DKs will be DW frost, not 2H. The single-target difference is extremely small and the ability to deal damage at range and far superior AE/cleave are quite valuable. We'll see how it turns out starting tomorrow.

  18. #18
    No. It's a 1.5% difference.

    Actually, now that I re-ran the sims and refreshed my memory about how close they really are, I expect that most raiding DKs will be DW frost, not 2H.
    IDK what you're talking about.
    First off, lets just look at this: All the top Dks in the world (DPS logs, guilds, etc) are Frost 2h.
    Arv, Kruciel (although BL is hiding there specs / reforges / glyphs etc), and other death knights.
    Also, SMF will be fed all the BiS DW weapons, and Frost 2h is getting better simulations in Single Target, and it is the #1 2h spec atm.
    2h Frost > DW frost, and you will not be raiding DW Masterfrost at all unless you're in a 10m where you haven't gotten a 2h drop.

  19. #19
    I don't care about your "top world guild" elitist nonsense except to point at it and laugh, and loot distribution is completely separate from performance. We'll see how it works out starting tomorrow.

  20. #20
    I don't care about your "top world guild" elitist nonsense except to point at it and laugh, and loot distribution is completely separate from performance. We'll see how it works out starting tomorrow.
    This is why you're probably top 100 US guild, which after WoTLK isn't anything.
    If you're frost DW, then you got a lucky ass drop with 476 heroic dungeon weapons, and therefore should be raiding as such unless you have the same ilvl 2h with similar stats.
    The facts are: Frost 2h > Frost DW for single target by 2-4k (Min/Max).
    All progression Frost Death Knights will be 2h.
    All DW weapons WILL be fed to SMF Warriors.

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