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  1. #121
    For the last 50%, Elegon easily takes than 3 times or more of your normal damage and for most of the fight, you have at least 50% damage bonus.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    For the last 50%, Elegon easily takes than 3 times or more of your normal damage and for most of the fight, you have at least 50% damage bonus.
    That's true. But for some reason I'm doing lowest amout of damage at the start of fight. After that I'm usually top or 2nd top DPS at the group but according to videos I see on youtube it's not how it's suppose to be in P1.

  3. #123
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    I don't necessarily want to derail this into a boss strategy discussion. However, I am wondering if other people are begin the questioning of our scaling.

    I'm feeling as though the gear isn't increasing much damage-wise:

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-n0...?s=3172&e=3603

    I've considered weaving in some FFB's by hard-casting so long as I don't lose the FB debuff on the target. I can't switch to frost bomb because of Light of Cosmos (really hope they change that). Trying not to sound like I'm perfect at execution and the spec is the problem, but given the very few frost parses and zilch from arcane, this is looking bleak for those of us who really do not like fire.

    I'm going to stick to my guns with frost though and hope tier bonuses help level the playing field. Even at a 492 ilvl, I still have no tier bonuses and that's making things complicated. Pressure from my guild, including mockery, despite me being the GM, to go fire is really beginning to be a strain on me.

    Are other people experiencing this stress and lack of scaling upwards as you improve in gear?

  4. #124
    High Overlord Moltor's Avatar
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    Frost mage part time here, but we have a mage that has loved (or tried) frost since wotlk. Viable or not.

    But it appears the spec does not love him. He started okay but as fights have got more movement intensive (i.e. first 3 in Heart of Fear) and he has been very bad to the point it feels like dead weight in our group. He's also at the recieving end of the jokes and pressure to reroll fire for these fights. I am one of those telling him too aswell :/

    Thank god its my alt, i do whatever i want !!!

  5. #125
    I think it's mentioned before that fire scales better with gears. But i like frost even though my dps isn't as high as my guild's fire mage.
    But i believe that as we get our tier set and shatter crit cap. We should see better dps.

    Meanwhile i guess could only try and see which lvl90 talent is better for our dps, as the uptime on it really has an impact on how high or low our dps is.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    I don't necessarily want to derail this into a boss strategy discussion. However, I am wondering if other people are begin the questioning of our scaling.

    I'm feeling as though the gear isn't increasing much damage-wise:

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-n0...?s=3172&e=3603

    I've considered weaving in some FFB's by hard-casting so long as I don't lose the FB debuff on the target. I can't switch to frost bomb because of Light of Cosmos (really hope they change that). Trying not to sound like I'm perfect at execution and the spec is the problem, but given the very few frost parses and zilch from arcane, this is looking bleak for those of us who really do not like fire.

    I'm going to stick to my guns with frost though and hope tier bonuses help level the playing field. Even at a 492 ilvl, I still have no tier bonuses and that's making things complicated. Pressure from my guild, including mockery, despite me being the GM, to go fire is really beginning to be a strain on me.

    Are other people experiencing this stress and lack of scaling upwards as you improve in gear?
    going off http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-n0...?s=3172&e=3603

    your dps does seem low for your gear, though if the rest of your raid is around 490 as well, their dps is low too. 70k is about what I'd expect at 470.

    The good news is that it looks like some of that dps can be gained by doing things more good :3 In that parse you had 7% (!) uptime on incanter's absorption. it looks like you did try to use it but it only procced twice. That talent is by far the worst one for that fight. Rune of power wouldt be too bad but I'd think invocation would be the best option. Ice barrier is no bueno for dps, or really for healing. Temporal shield is really amazing on most fights, and is off the GCD. Honestly you should have given the trinket to somebody else and kept using frost bomb.. too late now i guess.

    Fire will be at the top on WoL because:
    It is absurdly easy to play
    It sims slightly better (people are sheep in regards to sims)
    It RNG swings more, leading to lower lows and higher highs.



    ALLL that aside, why won't you go fire. Progression requires sacrifices, just because you're the GM doesnt make you immune. If you go fire and your damage doesnt increase then fine, but if you do significantly more dps as fire that's the spec you should be in raids. I am assuming that you are in a high-moderate progression guild based on your ilvl

  7. #127
    He absolutely should not have given the trinket to someone else, its incredible for us, you just have to suck it up and get used to one of the other mage bombs. That being said people are slow to adapt, its still incredibly hard to get people to take frost seriously, the worst is when I beat our fire mage no one says a damn thing, but every fight the rng goes his way everyone wants to know why I don't go fire. I don't go fire because its a braindead spec that relies on rng and has all the dmg frontloaded into two spells. Frost offers variety and utility to a raid setting, I always did better on sparks on Elegon because of more on command instants and a faster casted nuke than the fire mage, unfortunately most average raiders aren't smart enough to look at anything but dmg done on Skada. Frost seems to take a little more learning to play just right, you really have to time all your cd's well with the fight, it also seems like Blizzard wants frost to succeed this expac so I wouldn't give up on it just yet, if it starts to fall behind I'm sure it will get buffed.

  8. #128
    For those Frost Mages at Elegon, have you guys know when is the best time to use invocation through out the fight?, I believe that's my issue, since I have a great burst at the beginning using my cds (180k), but later on I can't find the right time to use such spell (6462 Haste), with sparks coming and all.

    Or maybe should I switch to another talent on that fight as frost?
    Last edited by Taurrus; 2012-11-02 at 04:38 PM.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Taurrus View Post
    For those Frost Mages at Elegon, have you guys know when is the best time to use invocation through out the fight?, I believe that's my issue, since I have a great burst at the beginning using my cds (180k), but later on I can't find the right time to use such spell (6462 Haste), with sparks coming and all.

    Or maybe should I switch to another talent on that fight as frost?
    If you're talking about when to it during the energy charge phase (which I asssume you aare becaause the rest is pretty straightforward), I know my guild is really crappy at those so we only go 4-4, maybe 4-5 or 5-4. Anyways, if your guild does about the same, you'll want to evo right before the first set of charges even come out and then evo again in between the 2nd and 3rd one. If you're doing 5+, you could probably try evocating at the start and between 3 and 4, though you might end up having a little downtime on Invo/charges so yea.

  10. #130
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    going off http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-n0...?s=3172&e=3603

    your dps does seem low for your gear, though if the rest of your raid is around 490 as well, their dps is low too. 70k is about what I'd expect at 470.

    The good news is that it looks like some of that dps can be gained by doing things more good :3 In that parse you had 7% (!) uptime on incanter's absorption. it looks like you did try to use it but it only procced twice. That talent is by far the worst one for that fight. Rune of power wouldt be too bad but I'd think invocation would be the best option. Ice barrier is no bueno for dps, or really for healing. Temporal shield is really amazing on most fights, and is off the GCD. Honestly you should have given the trinket to somebody else and kept using frost bomb.. too late now i guess.

    Fire will be at the top on WoL because:
    It is absurdly easy to play
    It sims slightly better (people are sheep in regards to sims)
    It RNG swings more, leading to lower lows and higher highs.



    ALLL that aside, why won't you go fire. Progression requires sacrifices, just because you're the GM doesnt make you immune. If you go fire and your damage doesnt increase then fine, but if you do significantly more dps as fire that's the spec you should be in raids. I am assuming that you are in a high-moderate progression guild based on your ilvl
    While you have a couple reasonable points I don't see much here other than baseless opinions, which is what the frost community has been trying to fight for the past few years. While frost bomb is definitely good, I think-- or rather I know, Light of the Cosmos with nether tempest is higher single target and cleave DPS.

    Of course you make sacrifices for progression. I have a fire spec and am able to play it easily, as could any chimp or cephalopod. However, that defeatist attitude is one step away from saying we should just remove all specs and a mage is a fire mage, with no alternative. It's closed minded thinking. My ability to play frost isn't so much in question as, is there a scaling issue here? Of course I can squeeze out more, I always can. Frost is all about smart timing and some attempts you just screw it up. That's the challenge and wonder of it, that's why I love frost and will always push for its viability.

    My ilvl isn't a reflection of our progression. I was stupidly lucky on Galleon and am wearing 5 items from him :P

    Thank you though for the feedback on Incanter's Absorption, I often would elect that talent while learning a fight simply to ease the burden on healers. However Invocation works a lot better and I've since switched to that. I'm not sure I understand your comment on Ice Barrier. Temporal Shield can be wasted so much more frequently than IB, and they're both on the GCD so there's no major benefit there.

    The spirit of this thread, I think, is to discuss frost mages-- not to tell us to go fire.

  11. #131
    Temporal Shield does not trigger a GCD.

  12. #132
    People keep pointing http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/ that out to me and saying "Almost no one plays frost for a reason, it's bad" Yet I beat fire mages all the time and do good dps..However my few times beating a fire mage doesn't beat all that statistical data. Even tho frost sims higher..I don't get it.

  13. #133
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    My bad on the Temporal Shield. That did change in beta. I've been using it in challenge modes and will likely maintain it in raids. However I don't really think that has much to do with my initial question. I think others definitely have hit the nail on the head here-- a lot of it is perception and the fact that fire is easier.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    Fascinating. I was actually seeing a fair amount of RNG tonight based on if my procs crit or not, so I could believe it. I wonder why the weights don't show up in simulation...

    I'll need to test.
    This was a while ago while discussing the possibility of prioritizing crit soft cap over haste. Just curious if you ever tested and what the results were. Is there any debate left on this now that we are a little better geared?

  15. #135
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Here's the log from our kill, finally:

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/l...?s=7794&e=8218

    I think there is hope for frost. It's just tough. Like Scuac I have been considering testing out shatter cap. I may test it next week and I'll let everyone know. 2pc will impact things too.

  16. #136
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scuac View Post
    This was a while ago while discussing the possibility of prioritizing crit soft cap over haste. Just curious if you ever tested and what the results were. Is there any debate left on this now that we are a little better geared?
    I tried it a couple weeks ago, forgot to report on it. I was getting more consistent results reforged crit, but I had a better average damage as haste. It was about 3k average difference for me, across all the non-gimmick fights. It makes sense given the mechanics of the spec. Crit heavy means you don't have as much RNG in your shatters, but haste means you get those shatters quicker along with evocation finishing quicker.

  17. #137
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    Actually, I ran with something between this two.
    I cap Haste around IV cap then reforge to crit until 23% (crit cap when Pure Snow is up).
    (I'm still need 2% crit for it)
    Last edited by Nathyiel; 2012-11-05 at 09:37 AM.
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  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    While you have a couple reasonable points I don't see much here other than baseless opinions, which is what the frost community has been trying to fight for the past few years. While frost bomb is definitely good, I think-- or rather I know, Light of the Cosmos with nether tempest is higher single target and cleave DPS.
    I'm not sure which of my opinions are baseless but I'm willing to defend them if you feel that's the case. Trust me, I've been fighting for the frost spec for a while now, but I am willing to admit the truth which in this case is that most mages will do more dps as fire. Now, let me be clear:

    I am not saying that you should feel obligated in all scenarios to go fire. I am saying that -if- fire does more dps on average -and- you are good at fire such that you actually see that dps increase -and- your raid is struggling with a boss such that increasing your personal dps has a statistically significant chance to impact your success... *then* you should go fire. This is assuming you care about progression. If not this entire discussion is moot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Thank you though for the feedback on Incanter's Absorption, I often would elect that talent while learning a fight simply to ease the burden on healers. However Invocation works a lot better and I've since switched to that.
    You're welcome :P Its worth noting, by the way, that incanter's absorption absorbs almost no damage. Timing evocation well provides some survivability benefit as well though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Temporal Shield can be wasted so much more frequently than IB
    Its definitely a skill move, but once you master it (and inform your healers about how it works so they dont heal you to full) its a really great ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    The spirit of this thread, I think, is to discuss frost mages-- not to tell us to go fire.
    I prefer to provide helpful advice, which I feel in this case is that you should be willing to go fire when it will benefit your raid, just as fire mages should be willing to go frost in order to handle energy charges on elegon, etc.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-06 at 08:15 AM ----------

    PS here's a log of my mage's first raid this expansion herping and derping stone guards, breaking evocate to move out of pools, ilvl 465 equipped
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-s8...?s=2887&e=3209
    Crit cap is really sweet for ice lance cleave fights looool
    Last edited by dennisdkramer; 2012-11-06 at 01:17 PM.

  19. #139
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    I'm not sure which of my opinions are baseless but I'm willing to defend them if you feel that's the case. Trust me, I've been fighting for the frost spec for a while now, but I am willing to admit the truth which in this case is that most mages will do more dps as fire. Now, let me be clear:

    I am not saying that you should feel obligated in all scenarios to go fire. I am saying that -if- fire does more dps on average -and- you are good at fire such that you actually see that dps increase -and- your raid is struggling with a boss such that increasing your personal dps has a statistically significant chance to impact your success... *then* you should go fire. This is assuming you care about progression. If not this entire discussion is moot.
    I am with you in that I think nearly all mages will struggle to be successful at frost. However, I'm not one of those mages. My numbers have really been backing that statement up, especially with the 2pc bonus, now that I have it. I have my fire spec always ready for when it is needed. However, I won't just cave to the easier spec like so many mages are doing.

    Rather than fall for what the masses are doing, it is a good idea to be completely sure with one's skill that the maximum possible results have been achieved with frost. I still don't even think I'm there and I am miles ahead of all but the luckiest RNG fire mages.

    It's possible. Just work at it if you love frost. But yes, always have that fire spec at the ready for fights that might demand it. RIP Arcane.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    I am with you in that I think nearly all mages will struggle to be successful at frost. However, I'm not one of those mages. My numbers have really been backing that statement up, especially with the 2pc bonus, now that I have it. I have my fire spec always ready for when it is needed. However, I won't just cave to the easier spec like so many mages are doing.

    Rather than fall for what the masses are doing, it is a good idea to be completely sure with one's skill that the maximum possible results have been achieved with frost. I still don't even think I'm there and I am miles ahead of all but the luckiest RNG fire mages.

    It's possible. Just work at it if you love frost. But yes, always have that fire spec at the ready for fights that might demand it. RIP Arcane.
    I'm not sure if I gave the wrong impression but I am playing frost and loving it and doing great dps :P
    RIP arcane indeed, I hate fire, never really liked arcane but at least it was better than fire..

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