1. #2041
    Haste or Mastery? Mastery or Haste? Oh God, someone tell me how to play! /curls up into fetal position

    Really though, I would like to try the mastery thing out sometime, but I'm really a fan of using frost bomb on the add fights, and I get the feeling it won't be as great without the haste stacking. Are you guys that are stacking mastery just sticking with living bomb?

  2. #2042
    @thesmuggler: Go haste, or an evil Akraen will show up and eat your face clean off. On a more serious note: Akraen is VERY convinced of going haste, and I do see the reasoning behind it. Someone, I think it was Nathyiel, also demonstrated quite nicely why haste scales with more of our spells then mastery. Personally, I found it to be the better playing experience as well.
    The only thing to keep in mind that sims (and to some extent my personal experience) have shown mastery to be better for straight single-target situations (or by extension pure two-target cleave). Now, I don't need to tell anyone that sims are problematic, but for straight single-target I still find them to be worthy of consideration. Since that is a rare situation anyway, and 2pc-T16 also favours haste, I'd say go for haste.

    @Akraen, or anyone really: There's been some talk of Frost Bomb around here, and I haven't really kept up so far. Is it really feasible to play with it now? If yes, in which situations do you use it? I get the more predictable FFB-generation, and that seems wonderful with the 2pc, but is it really overall more FFBs? What about the mobility issues? Seems still a bit akward to me.

    @pete: I feel your pain, I just recently went over to Arcane as well. The issue obviously is on a conceptual side. If I am geared completely for Frost, say in full haste, I will deal X amount of dmg with a bomb. If, without any other changes, I know switch over to Arcane, I will deal the same X damage + anything I can get out of my mastery. Frost just falls radically behind there, and there is nothing they can really do to change that (except nerf arcane). I do love Frost, and I obviously repeatedly argued that it is a valid specc (which it is), but it does feel frustrating to see that it is completely lacking a defined strength, or a fight to shine really.

  3. #2043
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    Just to note: Kuni have update the first post without telling us !!!!
    bad kuni ^o^
    The answers is 42
    -------------------------
    Nathyiel, TempteÐ (sargeras-EU) - @Nathyiel

  4. #2044
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    I love Pete, but he's intentionally playing frost wrong, then complaining the numbers are bad.

    If I buy a Ferrari, put cheese (mastery) in the tank instead of gas/petrol (haste), then I wouldn't be surprised that isn't running right.

    I run with glyph of CoC on every fight with more than one target. Frost doesn't need Glyph of WE or 2xBlink, you've simply chosen to believe that.

    I'm getting better results with frost bomb than the other two, but that might be because of the multistrike trinket. I'm going to continue running with just frost bomb for a while. Frost bomb in a haste build with the multistrike trinket is pure madness. I wish it could be castable while moving because you run out of things to hit, but ice floes is viable (I still prefer Blazing Speed for comfort). All that said, frost bomb may well end up being the champion for frost here.

    If you don't feel frost has strengths, you're looking at it all wrong. Not taking RoP is a strength. Frozen Orb is OP as shit, and being able to stutter cast while moving is incredible. We also have virtually no ramp-up (unless you're heavy mastery building icicles). Maybe you guys just don't like frost? That's okay too. What I see here is a failure to adapt.

    PS: 5 points if you get the Mitchell & Webb reference.

  5. #2045
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilya View Post
    @Akraen, or anyone really: There's been some talk of Frost Bomb around here, and I haven't really kept up so far. Is it really feasible to play with it now? If yes, in which situations do you use it? I get the more predictable FFB-generation, and that seems wonderful with the 2pc, but is it really overall more FFBs? What about the mobility issues? Seems still a bit akward to me.
    I switched to it on a flex run last night on all bosses (that's 8) and found it to be useful in all situations. I currently have 61% haste raid buffed and am finding Frost Bomb to be more useful at this level of haste. Faster casts, faster explosions, lower CD. It's predictability with BF procs makes it extremely useful w/ 2-set. Example: AOE fight, use BF proc, glyphed CoC after for 200% + 20% from 2-set. It's less maintenance and you can essentially use every BF proc you get (same thing can't be said for NT or LB). This predictability also allows us to camp on an Ice Lance proc once in awhile for movement and get an extra 20% out of it from the 2-set.

    My only qualm is Frost Bomb's damage on single target. I think next lockout I'll try LB out and see what the BF proc and damage ratio is between LB and FB.

    Movement doesn't hurt Frost Bomb too much at high levels of haste. You usually have an instant to keep damage up until you can get the cast off.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Agree with Akraen on glyph choices, no need for double blink or evocate heal (it heals for shit anyways).

  6. #2046
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    I'm getting better results with frost bomb than the other two, but that might be because of the multistrike trinket. I'm going to continue running with just frost bomb for a while. Frost bomb in a haste build with the multistrike trinket is pure madness.
    None of the bomb spells increase your pet/guardian (i.e. non-multistrikeable) damage, so the multistrike procs should provide a neutral [(1/3)*(proc chance)]% increase to all bomb DPS.

  7. #2047
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitwit View Post
    None of the bomb spells increase your pet/guardian (i.e. non-multistrikeable) damage, so the multistrike procs should provide a neutral [(1/3)*(proc chance)]% increase to all bomb DPS.
    For what it's worth, Frost Bomb would probably be the worst for it since it varies more strongly.(i.e. same average, but more common extremes in both directions)
    Also keep in mind that Multistrike isn't DTR, it only replicates the damage, not the spell.

  8. #2048
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    Hehe

    Well, it´s time to face some heroic bosses Akraen, then we can talk about the need of some glyphs : ) To the rest: Well I dunno what`s up with you atm, but if you are interested, I can share some private logs with you or we can discuss things in voice, because I like you man :P
    You have ilvl 560, I have 561. We can compare fights like Iron Juggernaut. We kill him heroic in 383.5s, you guys kill normal mode in 312.0s. You always said, that your fights take longer and this is why your dps is potentially lower (and you are right, of course). I have some additional mechanics in heroic mode and I can´t use the "wall strat" in heroic mode, but I can tell you there is a difference between our dps... : )

    *edit* I hope you don´t talk to me with "Maybe you guys just don't like frost? "
    Last edited by citizenpete; 2013-09-26 at 05:05 PM.

  9. #2049
    Akraen: Sorry if I expressed myself weakly here - of course Frost has a lot of strengths, and I still think it has an amazing feeling to its playstyle. I just think these strengths don't really shine in a setting where Arcane can just outscale them, basically by brute force. Stutterstepping casts and not placing RoP? So the Arcane Mage lost two GCDs, but still all his spells benefit from his insane mastery. Using Frozen Orb? Hi, I'm an Arcane Mage, and I can abuse AE to not only deal about as much damage, but also increase my singletarget output by camping at 4 stacks! It's not as elegant as Frost, it doesn't even require as much thought and work, and it doesn't feel nearly as fun as Frost, but it's still pulling off insane numbers. Since this is degrading quickly to a pointless specc-debate, let me just try and get back to the core of my point:

    Frost is much more fun, and the much better specc as far as the playstyle goes for me. But when you're competing with similarly geared and skilled people on the same boss, only to have Arcane outscale you, it becomes a lot less fun. Now, I will give Frost another shot if I ever get two pieces of tierloot, and the bandaid to Icelance obviously was nice. But in a lot of ways, Frost falls behind now - not because it's a bad specc, but because Arcane, in essence, is a broken specc with an inherently flawed design.

    So, that being said, lets get back to Frost Bomb real quickly: Do you use it on every fight now? Because I felt myself considering all the fights I've done so far, and it seems not to be a good choice on a lot of them. Basically, all the fights with spread adds and valid targets (think Protectors, Nazgrim depending on tactic)? Or do you go back to NT there. Also, with the increased control over FFB, do you use the 2pc to empower the next Frost Bomb? Or do you just unload FFB directly and use the 2pc for a Frostbolt, or even an Ice Lance?


    @Pete: I still think comparing people from vastly different raids will rarely bring a lot of clarity. Akraen is clearly doing well within his own raid, and I have no doubt he would outperform all of the Arcane Mages, including me, in our raid as well. The problem to every mage needs to be: Do I see a radical improvement in DPS when I switch to Arcane from Frost, despite playing Frost to the maximum? This was the issue I had - I know I'm quite a good Frostmage, yet even as a mediocre Arcane Mage, I saw a rise in DPS. The only thing I have yet to hope for is the recent hotfix and the 2pc, but I'm quite bothered by what I've seen so far.
    Apart from that: I challenge your perception of necessary glyphs. I do agree that we're a glyph-slot short, because I feel the Water Elemental Glyph could be helpful on a few fights. But Evocation is not necessary by any means, and double-blink only very rarely, at least on all the heroic fights I've seen so far. So thats not really the big problem.

  10. #2050
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    No doubt you're in the better guild Pete, time will tell I'm not trying to be adversarial, I think you're a better player than I am too.

    I just think there's a logical failure by you and the designers of the 540-1 simcraft. You argue that it is depressing to see how you go from a mastery frost build to arcane and magically all the arcane numbers are bigger. Well, of course, mana adept scales with -everything- whereas our mastery scales with FB/FFB and WE. Haste scales everything, then everything minus frostbolt in burst haste situations.

    Similarly, a properly geared arcane mage could stack haste then complain that how when they go frost they have far more actions per minute.

    Frost is an actions per minute design. You gain higher DPM/DPCT for icicles and icicle generating abilities by stacking mastery, but the picture is bigger than that.

    I'm slow and my guild is slow, so it'll have to be a few weeks before I can really prove this to you.

  11. #2051
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    Well I agree with you Ilya, different raids, different conditions. But Akraen saw - in some way - that I play wrong and/or underperform. All I want to show/say him is, that I´m happy for him, that he is doing well. But I have a problem with my beloved spec at the moment (dps, flow and flavour). Even if you think this is an unfair comparsion take my normal mode kill with ilvl 552 http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/3...4&e=14634#Pete

    Don`t think it was a fair move by Akraen.

  12. #2052
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    I'm not saying frost is as good as arcane. I'm saying you're doing frost wrong so your comparison is way off.

    Personally I think arcane is too high above any spec/class. Its mastery is far too powerful and overreaching.

  13. #2053
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    How so? Unless you get proc overwrites, any combination of two BF and two FoF will result in the same DPS.
    Because FoF-IL is higher dps than BF-FFB and you cannot stack the buff. i.e.
    BF->BF-FFB (proc BF)->IL+20%->BF-FFB->IL+20%=IL*2.4+BF*2 in 4 globals
    BF->BF-FFB (proc BF)->BF-FFB+20%->IL+20%=IL*1.2+BF*2.2 in 3 globals

    2 buffed casts, yes, but BF-FFB does less damage than FoF-IL so 1.2IL > 1.2 BF-FFB

    or am I completely off?
    Last edited by Light4; 2013-09-27 at 12:05 AM.

  14. #2054
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    Dunno, if I compare my frost kills with WoL, it looks nearly the same like it was in ToT. Kuni does extraordinary well by the way. I tested hours and hours on PTR and full haste and full mastery were always pretty close.

    I did some Sims today with 540-3 (recent Frost Mage buffs included). Single Target was mastery build slighty better and cleave was Int Int/Haste build slightly (0.2%) better than mastery (arcane build) reforge.

  15. #2055
    Quote Originally Posted by Light4 View Post
    Because FoF-IL is higher dps than BF-FFB and you cannot stack the buff. i.e.
    BF->BF-FFB (proc BF)->IL+20%->BF-FFB->IL+20%=IL*2.4+BF*2 in 4 globals
    BF->BF-FFB (proc BF)->BF-FFB+20%->IL+20%=IL*1.2+BF*2.2 in 3 globals

    2 buffed casts, yes, but BF-FFB does less damage than FoF-IL so 1.2IL > 1.2 BF-FFB

    or am I completely off?
    I believe you're slightly off.
    1. Why you omitted the un-buffed IL in the second option?
    2. BF-FFB scales with mastery, FoF-IL doesn't. Hence BF-FFB does more damage (even with splitting ice).

    Once you correct these two you'll see that the second option pulls ahead.
    With that said, you shouldn't count on chaining BF-FFBs, unless you play with frost bomb. But keeping one FoF charge (for that BF) is very beneficial with 2p.

  16. #2056
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Pete, here's my Garrosh kill:
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-n6...&e=6657#Akraen

    It's a bit higher than your arcane parse on Garrosh:
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/owyl5...29&e=1692#Pete

    Our kills were only 1 sec off!

    Also, single target analysis:
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-n6...6657&target=62
    vs
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/owyl5...1692&target=44


    Disclaimer: This is simply to prove that frost is viable and playable by anyone who is interested in working hard at excelling. It's also to demonstrate that my haste stacking is paying off. I still do think arcane is a smidge higher, but certainly within a skill variance.

  17. #2057
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Pete, here's my Garrosh kill:
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-n6...&e=6657#Akraen

    It's a bit higher than your arcane parse on Garrosh:
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/owyl5...29&e=1692#Pete

    Our kills were only 1 sec off!

    Also, single target analysis:
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-n6...6657&target=62
    vs
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/owyl5...1692&target=44


    Disclaimer: This is simply to prove that frost is viable and playable by anyone who is interested in working hard at excelling. It's also to demonstrate that my haste stacking is paying off. I still do think arcane is a smidge higher, but certainly within a skill variance.
    No offense to Pete but you are comparing a rank 1 parse to a rank 30. Don't get me wrong props on the numbers but if you look at the rank 2 arcane (rank 1 was scumbagging adds) you will see a 48k difference in dps, including 14 million more damage on Garrosh and 8 million more desecrated wep damage.
    Last edited by Kenbud; 2013-09-27 at 04:23 AM.

  18. #2058
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenbud View Post
    No offense to Pete but you are comparing a rank 1 parse to a rank 30. Don't get me wrong props on the numbers but if you look at the rank 2 arcane (rank 1 was scumbagging adds) you will see a 48k difference in dps, including 14 million more damage on Garrosh and 8 million more desecrated wep damage.
    Read my disclaimer. I would've been top 20 fire or top 15 arcane. How's that bad?

    I swear that all I am trying to do is stop the bad image for frost, the image that people can't be the spec they want to be, or even use the bomb they want to use.

    I want people to be more focused on being better players, adjusting their UIs, experimenting with ideas outside convention. I want people to take responsibility for their own performance and not be so settled on doing what the top guilds' mages say.

    I look at it like this, I think I'm slightly above average at frost mage. I know people like you or Pete could outplay me. So I'm really convinced if you just drop this mastery stacking nonsense, you'll see frost do some great numbers.

    I just don't want frost to die because the prevailing theorycraft was wrong. 23 frost mages killed Garrosh... that's sad to me. Very sad.

  19. #2059
    Our guild private logs. However, I did heroic dark shamans as frost today and did 318777 DPS playing with arcane reforging (haste to 9762 / all mastery after). This would be the #2 frost parse for public heroic kills and #6 for west region mage heroic kills overall, as I skimmed WoL of all three specs and counted up heroic kills mixed in with the normal rankings.

    ed: I armoried the lone frost mage who did more than me (325K). He went haste - but has 6 ilevel and T16 4pc on me (I did the fight with T15 4pc). I'll stick to mastery.

    There's just no compelling reason to play stacking haste from what I can tell. None. Mastery is giving such great results on fights with light to medium movement that I can't see myself ever switching to stack haste when I'm already getting great results. Especially on fights where I'm using living bomb and not NT, since on shamans NT doesn't make sense seeing as LB explosions hit all the foul geyser adds. And frost bomb goes miles below GCD when stacking haste.

    I would have done heroic Nazgrim as frost for better add control / damage but felt arcane was stronger since the fight has low movement, but after killing it I think I could have done about the same damage with frost since I could have just left my pet hitting the boss during D-stance instead of standing around doing nothing waiting for adds.
    Last edited by citrique; 2013-09-27 at 05:30 AM.

  20. #2060
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Read my disclaimer. I would've been top 20 fire or top 15 arcane. How's that bad?

    I swear that all I am trying to do is stop the bad image for frost, the image that people can't be the spec they want to be, or even use the bomb they want to use.

    I want people to be more focused on being better players, adjusting their UIs, experimenting with ideas outside convention. I want people to take responsibility for their own performance and not be so settled on doing what the top guilds' mages say.

    I look at it like this, I think I'm slightly above average at frost mage. I know people like you or Pete could outplay me. So I'm really convinced if you just drop this mastery stacking nonsense, you'll see frost do some great numbers.

    I just don't want frost to die because the prevailing theorycraft was wrong. 23 frost mages killed Garrosh... that's sad to me. Very sad.
    I also find it very sad and I appreciate what you are trying to do for frost but the problem lies with inexpirenced or less knowledgable players, they don't understand the situation and get the wrong idea. Thee are so many variables that go into how a spec performs but all they see is a rank 1 frost Mage saying its competitve. If all three specs are played to their maximum frost is quite a bit behind but they don't understand itemization requirements or learning curves and topping meters in your raid means very little when it comes to a whole specs performance. All Iv been trying to say this entire time is that playing frost is a conscious decision to play an inferior spec as a whole. Now maybe you're the bomb frosting at playing frost and just can't pull the same numbers as arcane, maybe you just love frost and would be miserable showing up to raid if you didn't play it. Whatever the reason to each their own all I want is for people to stop saying the specs are equal. A really good frost Mage will be able to beat other high dps classes if they are played by above average to good players but when you get into a raid with rogues, ferals, locks and other mages that are also very good players frost will get left in the dust.

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