1. #2081
    Back on topic: I've been at 61% haste for this past raid lockout; I'll be doing a haste to 53.84% > mastery build for a flex run tonight to give it a test. I should at 57% mastery raid buffed. I'm hoping to get some results out of it to compare to the previous flex runs of my haste build.

  2. #2082
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilya View Post
    Now, I'm not a big fan of the school of thought that goes "it works for me so it's obviously the best". I understand Akraens frustrations, but I've been saying for well over a patchcycle now that we are simply lacking the math to prove any statweights we are considering at the moment, or even settle the issue of which bomb to use when. Actually, I do trust simcraft enough for straight single-target to accept the notion that mastery has become a more important stat to us, and I believe Akraen is still undervalueing it a bit. But that is my personal opinion, not a statement of fact. And it is the same for you, critiqe, because quite frankly, you never established any source but your own experience for your claim that haste-stacking is "nonsense". That is simply not enough.
    Honestly, the issue here seems to be that none of the mage simulation tools are being actively maintained or debugged, which causes everyone to be suspicious of the results they spit out. That's a fine reaction on its own, but for whatever reason it hasn't motivated anyone to step up and fix the tools, and it also doesn't seem to have encouraged anyone to make alternative theorycrafting/simulation tools. Everyone seems to be playing the specs based on gut feelings, or perhaps based on what players A, B, and C in top guilds X, Y, and Z are doing (usually without truly understanding why they made the decisions they did).

    It wouldn't even take much effort to sanity check some of the numbers that SimC is coming up with: find an isolated training dummy (i.e. no external debuffs), try to follow SimC's single target priority list against it for a decent period of time (30-60+ mins), and post the worldoflogs and an armory link with the setup you used here. Include whether or not you used any consumables. I can then generate a SimC output of your character under those same conditions and see whether or not anything looks hugely off, and I can relay that information over to SimC's developers.
    Last edited by Nitwit; 2013-09-28 at 09:29 PM.

  3. #2083
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastamage View Post
    Back on topic: I've been at 61% haste for this past raid lockout; I'll be doing a haste to 53.84% > mastery build for a flex run tonight to give it a test. I should at 57% mastery raid buffed. I'm hoping to get some results out of it to compare to the previous flex runs of my haste build.
    firstly, I've been reading these boards for a long time and this whole mastery/haste business has forced me to finally create an account and join the discussions.

    Anyways, did you get your testing down? How are your numbers looking?

  4. #2084
    Keyboard Turner Bathala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erestron View Post
    Let me throw in a little question: If our problem is the bordered scaling of our secondarys, why not stack the one stat that has no caps and that all of our casts scale with? Why not stack Int and get the highest possible haste-breakpoint "passively" ? Has somebody tested this, yet? And if so, are the outcomings so bad?
    Since our Galakras HC-Firstkill last week I'm raiding as frost, pretty surprised about the numbers (feel free to check logs).
    I went full-haste, nonetheless I'm not convinced that this is the way to go after hitting 54 %...
    I like the idea gemming intellect afterwards, since our mastery scales with intellect, too.

    Hard to make a decision without any data...

  5. #2085
    Quote Originally Posted by Xerxese View Post
    firstly, I've been reading these boards for a long time and this whole mastery/haste business has forced me to finally create an account and join the discussions.

    Anyways, did you get your testing down? How are your numbers looking?
    I'll need at least another week for a good data set

  6. #2086
    Dreadlord
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    After all the test I made, its pretty clear imho:

    1 Target: Mastery > Haste
    2 Targets: Mastery > Haste
    3 Targets: Haste > Mastery
    4 Targets: Haste > Mastery
    5 Targets: Haste >> Mastery

    etc.

    but @ 3+ targets the gap between Frost and Arcane become bigger and bigger (in favour for arcane, of course)

    Frost need to be superior single target and 2 target cleave or an interaction between bombs and mastery.
    Last edited by citizenpete; 2013-09-29 at 05:22 PM.

  7. #2087
    let's try and keep this thread to Frost only. We've established it's behind Arcane.

  8. #2088
    Dreadlord
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    I did hrs of testing with frost and you say "lets keep this thread only to frost only?"

  9. #2089
    You throw in that it's behind Arcane constantly. We know this.

  10. #2090
    Dreadlord
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    I don`t get your problem. I did big testing, found out, that frost haste become stronger with 3 targets and above and I found out, that the other spec (Arcane), get way stronger above 3+ targets in relation to frost (any reforge). This is an important inforamtion to me and I don´t like, that you try to censor me.

  11. #2091
    we have no problem with the testing and are grateful people have the time to do it. What I see as the problem is that if new people come into the thread, like we see a lot, they will see that a certain Frost build is good for this many targets and such. Then they scroll down a little and see the Arcane comments in the same reply and get mixed views. That's why I say keep it to Frost.

  12. #2092
    The Patient Kver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mastamage View Post
    we have no problem with the testing and are grateful people have the time to do it. What I see as the problem is that if new people come into the thread, like we see a lot, they will see that a certain Frost build is good for this many targets and such. Then they scroll down a little and see the Arcane comments in the same reply and get mixed views. That's why I say keep it to Frost.
    If people read half a page's worth of posts and draw a conclusion from that then that is their own fault, not pete's. If you want to properly discuss Frost's DPS abilities then you'll have to compare it to other specs too. You need something to compare DPS to before you can judge it, be that Frost, Arcane or Fire.

  13. #2093
    For those interested, there has been an external Frost TC forum setup on our guild website. This will be heavily moderated. It includes math, graphs and charts from Akraen's work. http://naturalorderguild.com/forum/m...-for-54/page/1
    Last edited by Mastamage; 2013-09-29 at 10:31 PM.

  14. #2094
    You dun goof'd with your link :P

  15. #2095
    Quote Originally Posted by Zavri View Post
    You dun goof'd with your link :P
    edited, try it again

  16. #2096
    Quote Originally Posted by citizenpete View Post
    I don`t get your problem. I did big testing, found out, that frost haste become stronger with 3 targets and above and I found out, that the other spec (Arcane), get way stronger above 3+ targets in relation to frost (any reforge). This is an important inforamtion to me and I don´t like, that you try to censor me.
    Thanks for comparing it to arcane, Pete. I, for one, enjoy knowing where it stands in reference to a top-tier spec. And the fact of the matter is, if it's considerably lower, then I have no business playing it. Keep on testing, brother : )

  17. #2097
    So I have a question. What is the idea with the Frost 4pc bonus. I noticed the Frost BiS list doesn't have the 4pc available (understandable with the Chest and Legs having over 1200 Haste and Legs having Mastery) but is the tier bonus not good enough to drop one of those or is it persona preference?

  18. #2098
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesik View Post
    So I have a question. What is the idea with the Frost 4pc bonus. I noticed the Frost BiS list doesn't have the 4pc available (understandable with the Chest and Legs having over 1200 Haste and Legs having Mastery) but is the tier bonus not good enough to drop one of those or is it persona preference?
    IIRC the 4P bonus was extremely weak for us, and it would be more beneficial to just go for the extra secondary stats. So yeah it isn't good enough.

  19. #2099
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    It's worth about 2% of your damage, which is what set bonuses should be. It's not weak on average, just a bit RNG. I'm not convinced it's a bad set bonus.

  20. #2100
    Agreed Kuni. However, not using the set-pieces for 4pT16 should give the advantage over using 4pT16, right?

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