1. #241
    Thank you for your answer !

    Actually i already tried FB when i leveled my mage as Frost. Then went Fire when i began raiding, and now after Fire nerf back to frost.

    Even if, on some pull, i hate waiting for a BF proc that can take way too much time to come with NT, i still find more comfortable to refresh NT versus FB because of the cast time.

    But i'll be ready to change if damage makes it interesting.

  2. #242
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wupavz View Post
    Thank you for your answer !

    Actually i already tried FB when i leveled my mage as Frost. Then went Fire when i began raiding, and now after Fire nerf back to frost.

    Even if, on some pull, i hate waiting for a BF proc that can take way too much time to come with NT, i still find more comfortable to refresh NT versus FB because of the cast time.

    But i'll be ready to change if damage makes it interesting.
    The problem with waiting is that with the 4 set the cd's start to fall out of line. I had no problem with using nether tempest with only the 2 set bonus. The other benefit of frost bomb is that when doing stuff while soloing or killing adds in raids it works a lot better.

    The cast time of frost bomb gets lower with haste of course and it's good to get used to spamming scorch when you have to move since you will have to on fights like tsulong. I find myself unintentionally refreshing nether tempest instead of using scorch which is another reason I prefer frost bomb.
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  3. #243
    Dinged my mage 3 days ago and trying to figure out the opening rotation for frost. Here's what I'm currently doing:

    T6 Talent > Pre-pot > FB > T5 Talent > FBx2 > Mirror Images > Frozen Orb > Icy Veins > Alter Time

    Will investigate about Rawr soon and dig a bit deeper, but until then, any pointers?

    Also, I find I'm often holding back on Alter Time until I have 2 FoF procs and Brain Freeze - is there any agreed upon threshold for when waiting to align procs is no longer a DPS gain?

  4. #244
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachtobi View Post
    Dinged my mage 3 days ago and trying to figure out the opening rotation for frost. Here's what I'm currently doing:

    T6 Talent > Pre-pot > FB > T5 Talent > FBx2 > Mirror Images > Frozen Orb > Icy Veins > Alter Time

    Will investigate about Rawr soon and dig a bit deeper, but until then, any pointers?

    Also, I find I'm often holding back on Alter Time until I have 2 FoF procs and Brain Freeze - is there any agreed upon threshold for when waiting to align procs is no longer a DPS gain?
    There's a quote around here somewhere that the dps gain from getting your frostbolt debuff to 3 stacks before you use alter time is such a small dps gain it's unnecessary.

    As for the opening it changes slightly depending on wether your using frost bomb or nether tempest.

    Frost Bomb: Invocation > Pre-Pot > Frost Bomb > Frozen Orb > Mirror Images/Icy Veins > Freeze (only if necessary) > Alter Time.
    Always use icy veins during a gcd caused by another move. I always do Mirror Images then Icy Veins. I can usually fit one frostbolt somewhere in the above opening and I get the other two stacks up after using all my procs when alter time is up.

    On the various fights where you pop hero right at the start in dungeons and LFR I suggest you also use Time Warp as people have a tendency to pop hero while you have alter time up which completely wastes it.

    Nether Tempest is the same except you usually have more time before the first brain freeze proc so you can get your frosbolt stacks up. If you get 10 seconds through the duration of icy veins and there's still no brain freeze proc I would use alter time with just 2 FoF charges.

    It's not as set in stone as you might think. As long as you get as many procs up as possible for alter time while minimising the wasted procs you have a little bit of freedom in the opening.
    Last edited by jtmzac; 2013-01-02 at 04:42 PM.
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  5. #245
    Good stuff jtmzac, cheers.

    Now onto AOE. Some questions from the untrained mage:

    1) At what amount of adds are Ice Lance and FFB procs (respectively) no longer worth it?
    2) How many targets should I generally be maintaining Nether Tempest multidotting on, if at all?
    3) Freeze for AE crits is free, but isn't Frost Nova also worth the GCD on fights like Wind Lord?

  6. #246
    I think FoF Ice Lance (glyphed) is always the most damage you can get for a button press if Orb is on CD.

    If you for some reason have NT for a multi-target fight, as many as you can get away with. Just press the buttons according to priority, Frostbolt will probably fall out of your rotation.

    Frost Nova will break before you can do anything of value with it. It doesn't do enough damage to make up.

  7. #247
    The 5.2 notes contain the following:
    Water Elemental
    Freeze no longer does damage, and only provides Fingers of Frost on a successful freeze.

    I'm uncertain what is actually changing. Or does this mean that if the target is immune to freezes (like bosses) then there will be no charge generated? That would be a huge nerf. However, maybe this means that the new water elemental ability (whose name escapes me at the moment) is in the works.

  8. #248
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    I test it this morning on dummies in Org.
    When the target is "immune", FoF don't proc.

    There's 3 options : change in FoF proc mechanics (less probability), new WE ability baseline (good probability) or with a glyph (possible).
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  9. #249
    this will help boost my dps

  10. #250
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachtobi View Post
    Good stuff jtmzac, cheers.

    Now onto AOE. Some questions from the untrained mage:

    1) At what amount of adds are Ice Lance and FFB procs (respectively) no longer worth it?
    2) How many targets should I generally be maintaining Nether Tempest multidotting on, if at all?
    3) Freeze for AE crits is free, but isn't Frost Nova also worth the GCD on fights like Wind Lord?
    1. I always prioritise procs over everything I don't know the actual math for it so it might be different.

    2. I always dotted up 3 targets just because any more makes it impractical to refresh them reliably and for more targets I would suggest using frost bomb if you can. You don't get more brain freeze procs by putting nether tempest on more targets.

    3. If the adds on wind lord can be frozen (I haven't really bothered trying on normal and I know the adds on empress can't be frozen) then I would use all your freezes with frozen orb (Freeze, Frost nova, Ice Ward). I wouldn't bother running in to use frost nova unless you were using frost bomb.

    Blizzard>AE as frost. Blizzard has a 4% chance per tick to proc FoF.

    Here's something from another post I made that might be of use to you:

    Quote Originally Posted by jtmzac View Post
    This is to show what is the priority for the filler spell during aoe not wether to use procs or not.

    As usual don't trust my math but I tried to work out the damage for one target. The numbers include the FoF proc chance but not the chance to crit:
    Frostbolt (includes 15% extra damage from debuff): 54050
    Flamestrike: 25590
    Blizzard: 14350
    Arcane Explosion: 13170

    The main thing to note is that the damage is assuming your target will be alive for the entire flamestrike dot. Frostbolt and flamestrike have the same cast time and blizzard ticks twice during the cast time of frostbolt or flamestrike.

    Assuming my math is even close to correct 1-2 targets you just stick with frostbolt as the filler. 3+ you would use flamestrike on cd over frostbolt and 4+ targets you would use blizzard over frostbolt.
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  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by jtmzac View Post
    1. I always prioritise procs over everything I don't know the actual math for it so it might be different.

    2. I always dotted up 3 targets just because any more makes it impractical to refresh them reliably and for more targets I would suggest using frost bomb if you can. You don't get more brain freeze procs by putting nether tempest on more targets.

    3. If the adds on wind lord can be frozen (I haven't really bothered trying on normal and I know the adds on empress can't be frozen) then I would use all your freezes with frozen orb (Freeze, Frost nova, Ice Ward). I wouldn't bother running in to use frost nova unless you were using frost bomb.

    Blizzard>AE as frost. Blizzard has a 4% chance per tick to proc FoF.

    Here's something from another post I made that might be of use to you:
    None of the top parses for Wind Lord 10/25 H or N use Blizzard.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
    No, it's neither harassment NOR ninja'ing to roll on any item the system allows one to.

    Nor is it against any rules to votekick a member from the group - one person can't do it, apparently someone agreed with the rogue.

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    None of the top parses for Wind Lord 10/25 H or N use Blizzard.
    Stop using top parses as an indication of what's best. If I went by top parses Invocation>IW on Garalon. Lots of top parses are by overgeared people cheating/ignoring mechanics because they're overgeared.

    Blizzard is still better in theory and it's a lot easier than running in plus running in is riskier because of the mechanics.

    I only use flamestrike on normal because there's so many procs you couldn't cast many AE/Blizzards anyway without losing the frostbolt debuff.
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  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by jtmzac View Post
    Stop using top parses as an indication of what's best. If I went by top parses Invocation>IW on Garalon. Lots of top parses are by overgeared people cheating/ignoring mechanics because they're overgeared.

    Blizzard is still better in theory and it's a lot easier than running in plus running in is riskier because of the mechanics.

    I only use flamestrike on normal because there's so many procs you couldn't cast many AE/Blizzards anyway without losing the frostbolt debuff.
    If Blizzard was so good, it would show up in the top 40 on any size/difficulty.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
    No, it's neither harassment NOR ninja'ing to roll on any item the system allows one to.

    Nor is it against any rules to votekick a member from the group - one person can't do it, apparently someone agreed with the rogue.

  14. #254
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    If Blizzard was so good, it would show up in the top 40 on any size/difficulty.
    It's not that good... It barely beats AE and a 4% chance to proc FoF is very low. Even if you tank all of the adds together with the boss you only have 6 targets on wind lord. It's barely a dps increase to use AE or blizzard as a filler instead of frostbolt.
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  15. #255
    If you tank everything together, you have 10 targets.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    If you tank everything together, you have 10 targets.
    Well, if you're so confident as to don't CC anything...

  17. #257
    If you CC anything, you're not tanking everything, are you?

  18. #258
    Pandaren Monk Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtmzac View Post
    Stop using top parses as an indication of what's best. If I went by top parses Invocation>IW on Garalon. Lots of top parses are by overgeared people cheating/ignoring mechanics because they're overgeared.

    Blizzard is still better in theory and it's a lot easier than running in plus running in is riskier because of the mechanics.

    I only use flamestrike on normal because there's so many procs you couldn't cast many AE/Blizzards anyway without losing the frostbolt debuff.
    What? Invocation IS better than Incanter's Ward on Garalon, especially heroic.

  19. #259
    Bloodsail Admiral spaace's Avatar
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    cone of cold is good for aoe
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  20. #260
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    What? Invocation IS better than Incanter's Ward on Garalon, especially heroic.
    I thought IW was better for Garalon and Will of the Emperor? At least that's what I had seen several people say. Maybe they just meant it was viable.
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