1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    Only under hero. There's no way 5.2 would have anywhere close to the haste needed to get to 100% haste with just the 5100 haste 2p.
    well we do use AT under hero at least 1/3 - 1/2 of our AT's should be under hero on most fights. There is a few fights with a long duration but not that many. + the sha of fear trinket.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    Only under hero. There's no way 5.2 would have anywhere close to the haste needed to get to 100% haste with just the 5100 haste 2p.
    Well yeah, it was not my intent to imply we'd be hitting that cap every time we used AT.

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    He just explained why Frost Bomb, because you know exactly when it will explode and can make that damage into a 100% crit chance.
    This will provide massive burst damage output in an area on trash packs.

    It is also balanced so that yes, it is worth the cast time. Blizzard might not have done the best job at balancing talents but things like damage/time spent casting are easy calculations.
    If the math is so easy, please show how this is so. With heroic LOTC trinket, procs taken into account and loss of GCD, I guess I don't understand how to make a calculation to compare NT to FB.

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by cockaroo View Post
    If the math is so easy, please show how this is so. With heroic LOTC trinket, procs taken into account and loss of GCD, I guess I don't understand how to make a calculation to compare NT to FB.
    On trash, I could easily do 1M damage with a single Frost Bomb. There is no way to get that much damage out of a single NT or LB.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
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  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by cockaroo View Post
    If the math is so easy, please show how this is so. With heroic LOTC trinket, procs taken into account and loss of GCD, I guess I don't understand how to make a calculation to compare NT to FB.
    "With Heroic LotC trinket"
    Don't use LotC with this, use the one from Sha :U

    Why would I give you the maths of this spell with a trinket it can't activate?

    LB: 1388 / 12 Sec + 1395, 1s GCD every 12 seconds
    NT: 2784 / 12 Sec, 1.5s GCD every 12 seconds

    NT and LB both have roughly equal damage and duration and with Frost's haste the GCD on NT being slightly longer doesn't really matter.

    FB: 3285, 1.5s GCD ever 10 seconds

    Frost Bomb does more damage than both even before taking spellpower into account, and you cast it more frequently.

    6 minute fight = 360 seconds

    30 NT/LB casts, 83520 damage, 30 GCDs
    36 FB casts, 118260 damage, 36 GCDs

    The damage of Frost Bomb over the length of a fight is significantly higher in order to compensate for the fact that you aren't necessarily always going to be able to cast it on cooldown. The GCD is actually exactly identical to if you were using Nether Tempest.
    To get as much damage as with NT you only need to cast 26 Frost Bombs in a fight, leaving the rest of the damage to compensate.

    Besides, we're not talking about raid bosses. We're talking about burst on Challenge Mode trash mobs.
    A Freeze/Frost Bomb combo is always going to outdamage any of the other bombs because killing trash fast is all about burst and they don't have any burst option at all, requiring a full 12 seconds to deliver their maximum damage output.

    On trash Frost Bomb can always crit, which is not true of the other two bombs. This doubles its damage (then adds mastery) to deal a substantial chunk of the enemy health.

  6. #286
    Do you guys have any idea of a place where I can find a T14 guide covering all mop bosses mostly focused on frost mages? Like those tips and tricks for each fight (which talents to use, glyphs, rotation changes, etc).

  7. #287
    Hi there Kuni, Im glad theres someone in the WoW community that actively raids as frost and keep giving advices, the wow battlenet forum sucks I cant seem to find anyone to ask.

    I am a Frost raider in MoP and I really enjoyed it. So far cleared 16/16N with competitive DPS hehe.

    What I would like to ask is that,

    1) What bomb should i use for clearing normal and heroic mode of the content? Im liking Living Bomb coz of the insta spread by fire blast, and i hate Frost Bomb coz the casting requirement makes my focus go away. And Im considering Nether Tempest now because of the 5.2 changes that wouldnt enable LB to spread by usage of fireblast.. What do u think the best bomb is?

    2) What trinkets should I use? I read that if I am running LB/NT, i should use Light of Cosmos, so does that means I shouldnt be supposed getting Essence of Terror if I use LB/NT?

    Maybe u can combine the answer for both these questions in one answer coz its interrelated

    Sorry for my bad English I hope u understand, I cant pm u coz my post is <10, thanks!!!

    ***EDIT***

    3) What weapon should I use? I may have a chance on getting that Jinya, and Im using Regails Crackling Dagger elite now, should i eye for that Jinya staff? Thanks
    Last edited by Gigamind; 2013-01-16 at 07:16 PM. Reason: Question 3 :P

  8. #288
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gigamind View Post
    Hi there Kuni, Im glad theres someone in the WoW community that actively raids as frost and keep giving advices, the wow battlenet forum sucks I cant seem to find anyone to ask.

    I am a Frost raider in MoP and I really enjoyed it. So far cleared 16/16N with competitive DPS hehe.

    What I would like to ask is that,

    1) What bomb should i use for clearing normal and heroic mode of the content? Im liking Living Bomb coz of the insta spread by fire blast, and i hate Frost Bomb coz the casting requirement makes my focus go away. And Im considering Nether Tempest now because of the 5.2 changes that wouldnt enable LB to spread by usage of fireblast.. What do u think the best bomb is?

    2) What trinkets should I use? I read that if I am running LB/NT, i should use Light of Cosmos, so does that means I shouldnt be supposed getting Essence of Terror if I use LB/NT?

    Maybe u can combine the answer for both these questions in one answer coz its interrelated

    Sorry for my bad English I hope u understand, I cant pm u coz my post is <10, thanks!!!

    ***EDIT***

    3) What weapon should I use? I may have a chance on getting that Jinya, and Im using Regails Crackling Dagger elite now, should i eye for that Jinya staff? Thanks
    1. If you don't like frost bomb then just use nether tempest.

    2. You want to use Light of the Cosmos and Essence of Terror.

    The trinket priority for nether tempest is Heroic EoT>Heroic LotC>Normal EoT>Relic of Yu'lon>Normal LotC

    3. Loshan, Terror Incarnate with a Tornado-Summoning Censer is by far the best weapon for frost.
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  9. #289
    Ahh ok thanks for the reply. Between Living Bomb and Nether Tempest, which is better?

    Coz Living Bomb has a 25% chance per tick of triggering BF, and NT has a 9% chance (I read it somewhere not sure if it true or not). For dogs i suppose LB is better than NT?

  10. #290
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gigamind View Post
    Ahh ok thanks for the reply. Between Living Bomb and Nether Tempest, which is better?

    Coz Living Bomb has a 25% chance per tick of triggering BF, and NT has a 9% chance (I read it somewhere not sure if it true or not). For dogs i suppose LB is better than NT?
    I'm not completely sure but I think Nether Tempest is a bit better in general. The proc chance is different because Nether Tempest ticks a lot more often.

    For fights like dogs and wind lord I have no idea whats better as I always just use frost bomb.
    Last edited by jtmzac; 2013-01-17 at 07:50 AM.
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  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Gigamind View Post
    Ahh ok thanks for the reply. Between Living Bomb and Nether Tempest, which is better?

    Coz Living Bomb has a 25% chance per tick of triggering BF, and NT has a 9% chance (I read it somewhere not sure if it true or not). For dogs i suppose LB is better than NT?
    Living Bomb has a 25% chance every 3 seconds, NT has 9% every 1 second. Overall, NT actually gives (slightly) more procs, with the chance of getting a proc after 3 seconds being roughly equal.

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Living Bomb has a 25% chance every 3 seconds, NT has 9% every 1 second. Overall, NT actually gives (slightly) more procs, with the chance of getting a proc after 3 seconds being roughly equal.
    You also waste more procs with NT because the tick rate is faster than the GCD.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
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    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  13. #293
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Frost being haste heavy also hurts LB's DPS. At no haste, half your damage is DoT and half is the explosion. When you add haste, you're only increasing half the damage for that global. NT gains for the entirety of the damage.

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    Frost being haste heavy also hurts LB's DPS. At no haste, half your damage is DoT and half is the explosion. When you add haste, you're only increasing half the damage for that global. NT gains for the entirety of the damage.
    Both LB and NT tick faster increasing dps. Haste makes the 2nd half LB's of the dmg come sooner. The difference is that the haste breakpoints for NT are lower so it's easier to get extra ticks.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  15. #295
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Both LB and NT tick faster increasing dps. Haste makes the 2nd half LB's of the dmg come sooner. The difference is that the haste breakpoints for NT are lower so it's easier to get extra ticks.
    When you hit a breakpoint for LB, the explosion goes back to where it should be. The movement in explosion time is negligible. Let's say you have enough haste to perfectly hit 6 ticks on LB. You've increased the DoT half your damage by 50%, but the explosion remains the same damage it was at no haste. It'll always end up being lower DPS for single target when you account for haste.

    Look, non-crits all over. NT for me ticks for 7904, 15 times. LB ticks 5289, 5 times, then explodes for 31768.

    7904*15=118560
    (5289*5)+31768=58213

    There's no reason to use LB unless you're in the mob range where it does more AOE damage. Single target, you should never use it. It's out-stripped at any gear level. That goes for all specs, not just frost.
    Last edited by Kuni Zyrekai; 2013-01-17 at 10:45 PM.

  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    When you hit a breakpoint for LB, the explosion goes back to where it should be. The movement in explosion time is negligible. Let's say you have enough haste to perfectly hit 6 ticks on LB. You've increased the DoT half your damage by 50%, but the explosion remains the same damage it was at no haste. It'll always end up being lower DPS for single target when you account for haste.

    Look, non-crits all over. NT for me ticks for 7904, 15 times. LB ticks 5289, 5 times, then explodes for 31768.

    7904*15=118560
    (5289*5)+31768=58213

    There's no reason to use LB unless you're in the mob range where it does more AOE damage. Single target, you should never use it. It's out-stripped at any gear level. That goes for all specs, not just frost.
    With those numbers, LB does less damage even without haste.

    7904*12=94848
    (5289*4)+31768=52924

    In terms of how much each benefits from haste. NT is increased by 125% and LB by 110% in your case. So yes, haste would benefit NT more than LB.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  17. #297
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    With those numbers, LB does less damage even without haste.

    7904*12=94848
    (5289*4)+31768=52924

    In terms of how much each benefits from haste. NT is increased by 125% and LB by 110% in your case. So yes, haste would benefit NT more than LB.
    Wow, I can't fucking copy things today. The DoT ticks are backwards. I apologize there. 5289 is NT, 7904 is LB. New numbers are 79335 NT and 75225 LB. I was wondering why it looked so off.

    The point I was trying to make originally was that LB doesn't scale nearly as well with haste. With IV/haste and time warp up, I only get 8 LB ticks, resulting in 95000 damage. NT under the same conditions goes up to 27 ticks, totalling 142803. The reasoning is that only half of LB's original damage benefits from haste, where all of NT benefits.

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    Wow, I can't fucking copy things today. The DoT ticks are backwards. I apologize there. 5289 is NT, 7904 is LB. New numbers are 79335 NT and 75225 LB. I was wondering why it looked so off.

    The point I was trying to make originally was that LB doesn't scale nearly as well with haste. With IV/haste and time warp up, I only get 8 LB ticks, resulting in 95000 damage. NT under the same conditions goes up to 27 ticks, totalling 142803. The reasoning is that only half of LB's original damage benefits from haste, where all of NT benefits.
    With that correction:

    NT:
    5289*12=63468; 42312 dpe (1.5s GCD)
    5289*15=79335; 66113 dpe (1.2s GCD)
    125% increase in dps

    LB:
    7904*4+31768=63384; 63384 dpe
    7904*5+31768=71288; 71288 dpe
    112% increase in dps

    So NT still benefits more from haste. Also, LB is already 1s GCD so this isn't reduced at all by haste the way 1.5s GCD for NT is reduced. LB is still higher dpe.

    This is of course in a vacuum. You will never really get NT GCD to 1s unless under temp buffs. There's also the effect of wasted Brain Freeze procs with NT since it is possible for procs to happen faster than you can cast FFB.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-01-18 at 12:14 AM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  19. #299
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    So NT still benefits more from haste.
    All I meant to prove.

    Also, LB is already 1s GCD so this isn't reduced at all by haste the way 1.5s GCD for NT is reduced. LB is still higher dpe.
    You do more for the time spent, but you don't make up the lost absolute damage in other sources if my napkin math is remotely close.

    This is of course in a vacuum. You will never really get NT GCD to 1s unless under temp buffs. There's also the effect of wasted Brain Freeze procs with NT since it is possible for procs to happen faster than you can cast FFB.
    Also true, but it's also ignoring the times where you do get chain procs at intervals you can actually use them. The proc chances between the two are really close, though.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    There's also the effect of wasted Brain Freeze procs with NT since it is possible for procs to happen faster than you can cast FFB.
    The increase in procs vs. LB is 10 times as large as the chance of two procs in a row. That's a nonissue you've got there.

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