1. #1041
    Dreadlord
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    Couldn´t stop thinking of it:

    NT @ 54% Haste, 24% Crit, 20k SP (18 ticks) - no lvl 90 buff

    9.939 DPS and 116174 DMG

    Duration: 11,69s


    NT @ 54,5% Haste, 24% Crit, 20k SP (19 ticks) - no lvl 90 buff

    9.972 DPS and 122629 DMG

    Duration: 12,30s


    Summary:

    We have 6.455 more damage with the 19th tick NT and a longer duration. In a 450s fight it would be like:

    54% Haste (18 ticks): 450s / (11.69 + 1 GCD) = 35,46 NT
    35.46 x 116.174 DMG = 4.119.530,04 overall NT damage in 450s

    54,5% haste (19 ticks): 450s / (12.30 + 1 GCD) = 33.84 NT
    33.84 x 122.629 DMG = 4.149.765,36 overall NT damage in 450s

    With 54,5% haste, we do 30.234,96 dmg more and saved 1.62 GCDs for an another ~50k Frostbolt (20k SP, 24% crit) with 1.3s cast time

    Thats (together with extra frostbolt) 177,77 more DPS. Nathyiel is absolutley right, a breakpoint makes no real difference (if my math is correct, of course).


    @ stX3

    Got my spreadsheet from the fire mage guide, but yours is better. I was looking for that, thank you.

  2. #1042
    Could somebody simcraft my Mage...my english skills are not good enough to make it right...i feel it ^^

    Just red a beginner guid...and i dont think thats enough

    PLZ i would appreciate it really

    EU-Alleria / Obscurion

    Still focus on the 18th tick of NT but have no idea with crit and mastery....and thats annoying...i know i could do more dmg with my gear

    Maybee someone whos skilled with Simcraft send me a PM

    Thx a lot

  3. #1043
    None of this banter has helped me solve the riddle of where do we stop with haste? I'm assuming its around 54% raid buffed since the meta proc would make all casts then at 100%. But is that proper logic to use? I mean, what about meta procs during lust? How far do we waste the haste stat?

  4. #1044
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    Yeah, that is what is bugging me too. At 54% passive, we are at 106.38% under BL/Meta and t15 2pc. Hope to read something about a fix for next tier, otherwise it´s going to be pretty worse in tier 16.

  5. #1045
    I thought it would be:

    2/1.3 = 1.5385/1.05/1.07 = 1.3693 or 15,697.25 rating + 2pc 1,800 = 1.4117 * 1.07 *1.05 * 1.3 (meta) * 1.3 lust = 2.6804 or 168.04%

    This would bring us to 2/2.68 = .75 s cast time on frost bolt. It would also give us around 32 ticks on NT though right?

    Just the meta w/2pc, which is more frequent an occurence than lust, is 2.0618, so just below the 1s cast time. Although this only happens twice a fight (meta + 2pc).

    So the most common occurence is simply the meta, which is huge, and comes in at 2.00005 at 1.5385 raid buffed. Leaving off haste at this point still leaves us at 1.3 s frostbolt cast time and at the 19th tick of NT without procs and at the 23rd tick of NT and 1.0 s cast time of frost bolt with the meta proc. This is the event that I would want to plan for. It would allow me to start dropping haste gemming and start slotting more int, which outside of mastery, is our only real productive return. I mean let's face it, with the current int procs devaluing crit, it is only going to be worse in T16. Also, if the meta is usable in T16, I would assume that the haste quandry remains as well.

    All we have left is Int and Mastery to look to, barring any knowledge of T16 set bonuses. The good news is, that still let's us shed a LOT of haste, from gems and maybe even forging, to tune down to a 50-53% self inflicted haste cap in favor of INT. However, this will devalue crit even more without even considering T16 crit allotment. That just leaves mastery.

    Or Fire spec.
    Last edited by Malfecto; 2013-05-12 at 10:16 PM.

  6. #1046
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Mastery gains seem progressive though I have no model for it. I spend more time traveling for work lately than being logged in. Next tier is required to have amazing set bonuses or I will be wearing t14 2pc because I will be searching for ways to improve mastery.

  7. #1047
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Mastery gains seem progressive though I have no model for it.
    Mastery value is very linear. It's haste value that decrease to it's level. If mastery value can increase, scaling problem would have been less problematic. Part of the problem is that Frost is so much Haste dependent to the point that event not being Crit capped (by 3%) isn't a real problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    I spend more time travelling for work lately than being logged in. Next tier is required to have amazing set bonuses or I will be wearing t14 2pc because I will be searching for ways to improve mastery.
    From what I have found :

    1. decrease bomb value around 10% of the total dps (not more than 40%).
    2. increase Waterbolt value because it's a long cast (2.5s) so haste have less impact and it benefice from both mastery and crit.
    3. increase FFB value because it's instant cast (no haste benefice after cap) and crit capped.
    4. remove Brain Freeze as a bomb's interaction or make it less effective.
    The n°4 is essential. As long as we have more haste = more FFB, the problem will persist.
    Another solution could be to simply add a buff like CM for Frost that boost Mastery by *1.05 or *1.1, or something like that
    The answers is 42
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    Nathyiel, TempteÐ (sargeras-EU) - @Nathyiel

  8. #1048
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    So the spreadsheet was coded oddly, but as far as I can tell:

    Base duration in ms (12000)/(ticks-0.5)=True interval

    =IF(MOD($B162, ROUND(H167, 1)) / H167 = 0.5; IF(ISEVEN($B162 / H167); FLOOR(H167 - 1, 1) + 0.4999; FLOOR(H167, 1) + 0.4999); FLOOR(H167, 1) + 0.4999)

    It was laid out a bit oddly, but it seems to say

    If (base duration/true interval rounded to the nearest millisecond)/true interval = 0.5, then check if (base duration/true interval) is even. If it is, floor true interval to the nearest 1s -1+0.4999. If not even, floor true interval to nearest 1s+0.4999. If the first if statement doesn't =0.5, floor true interval to nearest 1s+0.4999.

    Base tick duration in ms, so 1000 for NT/the above -1 gives you haste percent required.

    ((Haste percent required+1)/(1.07 frost armour*1.05raid haste))-1 is adjusted haste required. Ceiling to the nearest 1s (adjusted haste required*42500) is haste rating required for that tick.

    Adding hero/gem in where frost armour and raid haste are to add those values, as well.

    So 18 ticks is 12000/(18-0.5)=685.714285714

    (12000/686)/685.714285714=0.02551020408 =/= 0.5 so 685+0.4999 = 685.4999

    (1000/685.4999)-1=0.45878941776

    ((0.45878941776+1)/(1.07*1.05))-1=0.2984329486

    0.2984329486*42500=12,683.4003155, ceiling is 12684.
    Last edited by Kuni Zyrekai; 2013-05-13 at 09:27 PM.

  9. #1049
    Kuni (and others interested), take a look at totemspot. They explain the chart pretty well.

    http://www.totemspot.com/vb/entry.php?b=55&bt=517

  10. #1050
    Dreadlord
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    Well, that is how we all like to calculate haste, dots and ticks, but as you can see in Kuni`s post, it seems to calculated a little bit different.

  11. #1051
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Nah, the explaination is basically the same. There's a cell where it accounts for the banker's rounding but it does it in a really roundabout way, seemingly to make sure there's no error values, but it's the same in the end.

  12. #1052
    Dreadlord
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    But the result is not? 12672 compared to 12684 for the 18th. I really played with 12680 for a while...

  13. #1053
    Quote Originally Posted by citizenpete View Post
    But the result is not? 12672 compared to 12684 for the 18th. I really played with 12680 for a while...
    Its cause you are looking at the math wrong when trying to determine haste. You are doing 17.5 ticks /12 sec duration and thinking you need 1.45833, or 45.8333% haste. That would only work if the game didn't round the decimals - as Kuni showed above the game does round.

    You need to look at the haste required for the tick, 12 sec /17.5 = yields a tick speed needed of .68571428571 sec.
    BUT, because of the bankers rounding/truncation, the game changes that to a tick speed of .6854999 sec (as illustrated in Kuni's above math post). That's why you are getting 12672 haste, instead of 12684. 12672 haste would be if the game used the pre-rounded value (.68571428571) - but it doesn't, it rounded it off first to .6854999, which is slightly lower, and then calculates the haste needed.

    Hence 12684 haste rating for the 18th tick.

  14. #1054
    The whole rounding thing is down to it being a computer game. Computers are, by their nature, only capable of finite precision.

    Of course, Blizz could change it to work like in D3, but having stuff tick 60 times per second probably wouldn't be too good for the game.

  15. #1055
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    my question, what's the precision exactly ? 6 numbers ?
    like 0.499999 for 49.9999 % ?
    The answers is 42
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    Nathyiel, TempteÐ (sargeras-EU) - @Nathyiel

  16. #1056
    At that point nat, you're talking about fractions of haste points which we can not control in game. Adding more digits would not change the calculations (too few of course would).

    Keep in mind that the big difference between below and above breakpoints is the total length of the dot, from roughly 11.65 seconds before the 18th to 12.33 seconds after. This in itself is a definite DPT increase, but not a DPS increase. If you were to cast the same number of spells in between refreshing the dot (assuming always refreshing during the last tick), your dps would only increase minimally or even decrease (same damage + one tick over a longer period of time). What makes the breakpoint exciting is that you will sometimes be able to squeeze an extra spell in there depending on the number of instant cast procs you have. Lag, reaction time, movement, etc all play roles as well. 0, 3, 4, 7, and 8 instant casts in between refreshes will lead to time for an extra frostbolt one point after the breakpoint compared to one point before (After refreshing, the analysis would change a bit and the number of instant casts to get an extra frostbolt would shift to 2/3/6/7).


    I am in no way saying to not use your procs...use them, but depending on timing left on NT you could cast another FB and refresh NT before using the proc. Pay attention to your dot timers and your procs to decide what to do.

    To calculate number of frostbolts you can cast in between refreshes, I took the total dot length minus the number of GCD's used for instant casts (NT cast + IL + FFB) then divided by the FB cast time. Looking at the number of integer parts gives you the number of frostbolts cast. If the fractional part is in between zero and about half of a frostbolt cast time, then the dot should be on the last tick and ready for refreshing.

    # frostbolts = IntegerPart[ (TotalDotLength - N * GCD)/(FB cast time) ]

  17. #1057
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Mirror Image creates copies that no longer cast Fire Blast, but their Frostbolts do 10% more damage.
    Yaaaaaaay!

  18. #1058
    I don't think that's even a buff, considering at a glance MI fire blasts are about 15% of MI damage.

  19. #1059
    Quote Originally Posted by citrique View Post
    I don't think that's even a buff, considering at a glance MI fire blasts are about 15% of MI damage.
    Don't think it's meant to be a buff/nerf, it's meant to fix the QoL issue with MI having a range of 20 yards on their Fire Blast.

  20. #1060
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylol View Post
    Don't think it's meant to be a buff/nerf, it's meant to fix the QoL issue with MI having a range of 20 yards on their Fire Blast.
    ^ This. It's simply a fix. It's a slight buff for fights you can't sit in 20 yards, it's a slight nerf for those you can. I raged about it a couple weeks back.

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