1. #1101
    Today got thunderforged heroic gloves . They help me get 18th tick ,course im getting my haste missing but then ill have to brake my tier 4 parts .. Any suggestions ? (part to be replaced just normal tier gloves) Gloves im talking about are fromTortos Hc http://www.wowhead.com/item=96806

  2. #1102
    I am seeing (in 5.3) a significant increase (6%) in my overall long duration DPS on the target dummy by reforging/gearing Mastery over Crit. I am not anywhere near the crit cap when re-forged this way in fact I am at 16.49% unbuffed. I can see when all of my proc's (and buffed) are up I can reach 26.2% crit for the small duration (I only have 1 RPPM plus the VP trinket), and my IL+FFB are critting 87% in accordance with my crit rating. When I run with 21+% crit my IL and FFB crit higher respectively and sometimes the proccing puts me over up to 29% crit for a few seconds....but my overall DPS is alot lower.

    I was never really geared enough (I thought) in 5.1/2 to play with this I was just trying to get crit to cap and all the other stuff before going crazy with haste and mastery.

    SimCraft (530) tells me my crit build is better in DPS (slightly) and even at my peak crit levels was still weighting crit over mastery by .41/.39.

    Did something change in 5.3 (i.e. water elemental) for Mastery to really elevate DPS that much? I am using NT and have repeated the tests about 5 times reforging back and forth and it's always the same...i end up over 5 minutes (using 2 rounds of CDs) with 126-128k in the crit build and 134-136k in the mastery build.

    Perhaps I am not using SIMCraft right....maybe my play style/rotation is not good (although I am following the rules pretty much).

    I am leaving myself in the Mastery build for this weeks Raid, but I would really appreciate if someone could have a quick look at me and/or offer an opinion or share their current experience from this week.

    I still cant post links yet but i am US/Elune/United Forces/Bedacles

    Cheers!

  3. #1103
    I havn't changed anything regarding reforge etc - still gonig haste > mastery > crit and my dps has upped quite a bit since wed - 10-20k depending on fight.

  4. #1104
    Quote Originally Posted by Hasufer View Post
    I havn't changed anything regarding reforge etc - still gonig haste > mastery > crit and my dps has upped quite a bit since wed - 10-20k depending on fight.
    Thanks Has, that's really cool pleasant surprise with the patch. You are much better geared than me and have 2% more crit out of the box as well as better trink procs for INT....

    I surprised/perplexed about what I am seeing and I wonder if further changing crit for Mastery is the way to go now. Maybe it's related to having the 2 piece T14 still...trying to work out the math in my head as Simcraft doesn't agree i.e. 12% more IceLance and 5% more mastery on top of that outdoing the crit? I don't know I am just making stuff up trying to rationalize it!

    But anyways I dont have enough gear to swap in for more than a little more Mastery enough to realize a difference if it keeps out scaling crit in reverse (i.e. lower crit higher Mastery), and SimCraft certainly doesn't agree with my results.

    I also can go with the 4 piece T15 and take out the 2T14+2T15 but it would be a 502 robe and I would probably lose DPS. I feel like the 12% increase right now is better until I get 522's to break the set and go 4 piece T15....but I'll keep playing.

    Thanks!

  5. #1105
    Anecdotally, that chain-casting elemental in the corner is certainly making Mastery more attractive, but I haven't quantified if its mathematically significant...

    Has anyone put their mind to this?

  6. #1106
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    I do a lot of things differently than everyone else:

    I sacrifice all crit for mastery and aim to have as little crit on gear as possible.
    I don't glyph icy veins.
    I use NT.

  7. #1107
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    I do a lot of things differently than everyone else:

    I sacrifice all crit for mastery and aim to have as little crit on gear as possible.
    I don't glyph icy veins.
    I use NT.
    How's your DPS? ;P You have nice gear also. I think sacrificing crit for mastery is def the way to go for the most part. I am not up for non-glyphing Icy Veins at the moment but you must have noticed an improvement or a no-op at least? I know this was beaten to death early on in the forum and maybe I'll give it a try as well for fun. I thought I was seeing a bit of an improvement using LB but I am still looking at it....if only there existed a training dummy out of cleave range!

    I switched from Arcane to Frost right at 5.2 without even trying Arcane in 5.2 I am just at the point where I feel good about it...it's certainly alot of fun....but my raid needs results as well...so like the rest of us trying to optimize!

    Thanks for the responses guys!

  8. #1108
    Quote Originally Posted by Bedacles View Post
    ...if only there existed a training dummy out of cleave range!
    If you're alliance, there is one in Old Town. If you're on horde, there is one in Org.

  9. #1109
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bedacles View Post
    How's your DPS? ;P You have nice gear also. I think sacrificing crit for mastery is def the way to go for the most part. I am not up for non-glyphing Icy Veins at the moment but you must have noticed an improvement or a no-op at least? I know this was beaten to death early on in the forum and maybe I'll give it a try as well for fun. I thought I was seeing a bit of an improvement using LB but I am still looking at it....if only there existed a training dummy out of cleave range!

    I switched from Arcane to Frost right at 5.2 without even trying Arcane in 5.2 I am just at the point where I feel good about it...it's certainly alot of fun....but my raid needs results as well...so like the rest of us trying to optimize!

    Thanks for the responses guys!
    Check out my thread in this forum on frost haste tick stacking.

  10. #1110
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Check out my thread in this forum on frost haste tick stacking.

    Ak, hats a really interesting (and helpful) thread and more in line with what I am seeing.

    Thanks for the Target Dummy info Pyrod...I am still sort of new to Alliance...I knew there had to be one somewhere!

  11. #1111
    IV glyph is more or less only good on any fight where you lust/hero on the pull, as unglyphed IV + meta + lust give you such an absurd amount of haste that almost nothing but bomb damage will benefit since you will have near-infinite procs and many will go to waste.

    It can be dumped for various other glyphs (I'm likely dropping it on Lei Shen for AE or Blink).

    I don't "get" why some people continue to spam gem haste beyond the 12684 bomb tick breakpoint though. There's almost zero point in going beyond about 14K where frostbolt becomes 1s cast under meta/lust, the stat becomes pretty much worthless at that point unless you can get to another bomb breakpoint, but even then nothing but bomb damage, pet waterbolt cast time and about 50% of your frostbolts are benefitting. Mastery or crit become worth about the same amount since each is affecting about the same proportion of your damage.

    Getting 37 NT ticks by stacking haste + unglyphed IV + meta + lust is amazing and all but often half if not more of your BF procs go to waste at that point. The only fight I could personally justify doing that on would be heroic Council where NT will be about 40+% of your damage, but fire is so vastly better for that fight even when played at a mediocre level that I wouldn't bother.

    After many pulls of Lei Shen and other bosses playing both with spam haste gemming and haste to 12684 -> int, gemming int beyond that point produced better results. You must consider that beyond the 12684 breakpoint, int is the -only- stat which benefits -all- of your damaging spells at all times.

  12. #1112
    Dreadlord
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    Amen brother!!! Int > haste after ~13k. I preferred it even way before 13k (@ 11k). The problem for me with all the haste stacking is, it´s only good if you gain a lot more RPPM trinket, FOF, BF and sinister procs. But it is so random and luck dependant, that it makes no sense to me. Many people calculate: more haste = more % rppm and meta uptime. But that is wrong imho, because they all have a certain duration. You can´t gain 1% more uptime in a fight, it isnt´t possible. You gain 5 proc or 6. Thats 100 or 120 seconds uptime, but not 100 or 101s. It would make sense if the proc duration is affeced by haste, but it isn´t.

    5 weeks ago I tested a whole ID with haste stacking (around 15,5k) and it was okay, but the next ID I tested Int > haste (12,7k) and I did waaay better

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/q...?s=2488&e=2731 57.3% wusholaay uptime with 12,7k haste. That is a #1 rank a month ago with ilvl 529 or 528 (not sure). This kill wasn´t played well to be honest. I forgot to activate coldsnap during the the first iceblock and did a few movement fails, but it is still a #1 rank because of my incredible luck with trinket uptime.

    They guy on 2nd has 16 ilvl more and the us fella on 5th place has 8 ilvl more. Don´t know about the 2nd one, but the guy on the 5th has pretty nice ranks and I consider him as very good, but he wasn´t lucky with his trinket uptime, so a guy (me) with worse gear could do similar/better dps. That is simply not fair and should not be intended! Frost was very skill dependent during cataclysm. If you played well, you did good dps, if you played bad, you did worse dps.

    Hope they scrap this rppm thing or modify it (proc duration affected by haste for example).

  13. #1113
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    I'm just not seeing the "haste doesn't help frostbolt so scrap it" argument on these fights in heroic mode.

    The damage you can get NT to do is absurd.

  14. #1114
    The raid week ... not last week, but the week before, 14th and 16th? I was gemmed and forged at the 12684 cap (or whatever it is for goblins) and then picked up a ton of int gems in its place, and I didn't notice a damage increase. In fact, I noticed about the same amount of damage or less on some fights. At that point I was trading down from 51.5% haste raid buffed to the NT tick cap, and going back to pure haste the next week just felt more productive. I think too much discount is being given to IV glyph. Yes, it is strongest with Lust and openers, but you get 10 seconds of that with a frozen orb every minute. Each mini-IL, FB or FFB has a chance to crit, raising the dmg potential way above the 20% flat listed on the glyph description.

    Not to mention that you spend a lot of time casting FB between peak dmg opportunities, and more FB = more IL especially with the 4pc - regardless of how well it works, its still a bump. That coupled with the rppm behavior, I don't understand how haste before 53.85% can be dismissed as unhelpful.

    Maybe I didn't give the re-gem a long enough trial, but I enjoyed playing with more haste than I did without.
    Last edited by Malfecto; 2013-05-25 at 08:21 PM.

  15. #1115
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malfecto View Post
    The raid week ... not last week, but the week before, 14th and 16th? I was gemmed and forged at the 12684 cap (or whatever it is for goblins) and then picked up a ton of int gems in its place, and I didn't notice a damage increase. In fact, I noticed about the same amount of damage or less on some fights. At that point I was trading down from 51.5% haste raid buffed to the NT tick cap, and going back to pure haste the next week just felt more productive. I think too much discount is being given to IV glyph. Yes, it is strongest with Lust and openers, but you get 10 seconds of that with a frozen orb every minute. Each mini-IL, FB or FFB has a chance to crit, raising the dmg potential way above the 20% flat listed on the glyph description.

    Not to mention that you spend a lot of time casting FB between peak dmg opportunities, and more FB = more IL especially with the 4pc - regardless of how well it works, its still a bump. That coupled with the rppm behavior, I don't understand how haste before 53.85% can be dismissed as unhelpful.

    Maybe I didn't give the re-gem a long enough trial, but I enjoyed playing with more haste than I did without.
    I've had similar experiences and it contradicts sims and conventional knowledge big time which is why we have this mess.

    I'm finding 14308 haste (which is what I'm at now) has been so much better than 12684. And on dummies I do less damage with NT than LB, but on boss fights I do more with NT.

    I guess this is just how the game is going to be from now on-- play intuitively and share best practices, theorycrafting is dead.

  16. #1116
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    @ Akraen

    50% is the end for FoF IL and BF FFB. Do you really think that 1% more haste does more damage with NT than INT for all your damage? NT is not the holy grail for me, like for many other frost mages (execpt council, animus heroic and maybe durumu heroic). After 250 lei shen heroic pulls, frost is all about trinket uptime together with a lot of FoF and BF procs during skull banner. Frost benefits pretty much from skull banner - if not the most.

    Without an overpowerd tier set bonus, frost will be junk in tier 16 - like it was in dragon soul.

    "play intuitively and share best practices, theorycrafting is dead." - can´t agree more!

  17. #1117
    Malfecto:

    I'm uncertain where you are progression-wise, but look at the IV glyph in a logical manner. It's a glyph which is benefitting an ability you will use two, maybe three times during a lot of boss fights. In addition, it is only benefitting hardcasts or procs during that ability. When you cast NT while IV is up with the glyph, you gain nothing from it, making it less and less valuable as the number of valid targets in the fight increases. A number of the heroic boss fights require you to be able to maintain the dot on 2, 3 or 4+ targets to be contributing properly. (Council, DA, Iron Qon phase 4, Consorts phase 3, etc)

    The other glyph options you'd have available can be more beneficial. An extra 5y on blink is huge if it's an ability you use a lot in a fight such as heroic Lei Shen where I probably use it 20 or more times. An extra 5y on AE is big for Ball Lightning adds on Lei Shen (25H) or Megaera. Glyphed CoC shatter is amazing on H Megaera or Tortos if you're killing bats. Armors glyph is useful on Primordius so you can swap to Mage Armor if you get too many haste buffs. Etc.

    NT is maybe 25% of your damage on most single target or low target boss fights such as say, Durumu, Jinrokh, etc. So when you spam gem haste to breakpoints beyond the GCD cap, you are gaining literally nothing from the stat other than lowering your water elemental's cast time, lowering the cast time of frostbolt outside of lust/meta, and adding one extra tick to NT. So you're benefitting perhaps 35% of your damage on a given fight with it. Maybe up to 50% on say council.

    Gemming int benefits 100% of your damage 100% of the time. It doesn't benefit damage from NT as much as reaching a breakpoint for it does, but it makes every FFB, every pet waterbolt, every frostbolt, every ice lance and more hit harder. If you don't see a damage increase when switching from haste to int beyond the 18th NT tick, you're probably doing something wrong or judging based on a fight where NT is a disproportionate amount of your damage such as council.

  18. #1118
    Quote Originally Posted by citrique View Post
    If you don't see a damage increase when switching from haste to int beyond the 18th NT tick, you're probably doing something wrong.
    Pretty bold statement. Like many other haste loving frost mages, I've not seen a damage increase when gemming int over haste beyone the 18th tick, and I've gone back and forth multiple times to test. I see much better results when continuing to stack go haste > int and I'll continue to test it vs int > haste.

  19. #1119
    On one hand you say "oh IV glyph only benefits procs and hardcasts twice a fight, and doesn't benefit NT, so it has little value." So you are trying to pump up the value of the haste from unglyphed IV that shores up NT damage. Then on the other hand, you say "Haste only benefits NT primarily and negligible to other casts." Here it seems like you are saying since heavy haste only benefits NT, its not worth pursuing. And you go on to compound this contradiction by saying NT is "only" 25% of our damage?

    I understand INT is an increase to damage that has no scaling and no cap. And I understand it well enough that I see the benefit of high haste increasing RPPM uptime on my trinkets which are more INT than any gems I could sub for haste. Then, the meta compounds itself by proccing haste which increases the RPPM value of the meta. You can find a large portion of the fight casting FB at just above 1 second as you near 53.85%. Past that 53.85%, then yes, I can start to see a decrease in the value of haste, as you can't benefit from anything lower than the GCD cap and the 1 s casting floor. It still goes into the RPPM considerations though.

    So, my question to you is, if my uptime on trinkets is higher than yours on average across all fights from my haste, and those trinkets offer more INT than any practical INT regemming (not ignoring socket bonuses etc), then who has the greater average INT in a fight? Whose "every IL, Frostbolt, and FFB" are hitting harder? And who is casting MORE of those AND hitting HARDER?

  20. #1120
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    I'm more and more convinced of continued haste stacking for each type of NT plateau before switching back to intellect.

    However, even though I'm seeing this surprisingly controversial result (people really are coming at me hard in other threads), I still am perfectly open minded to be proven wrong.

    This math seems incredibly complex and I wouldn't even know how to take a stab at it, but when WoL says one thing and conventional knowledge says another, I start trying things. And what I've been finding so far is as Malfecto says, a smoother, quicker gameplay without Glyph of Icy Veins and maximizing NT ticks. This isn't to maximize the damage of the Nether Tempest, it's to fish for procs of both RPPM and BF.

    My best guess is that if you can get 14 or more additional BF's over the course of a fight from BF, then NT is better than LB. This number is easier to achieve on multi-target multi-dot fights, so those fights justify NT and tick maximizing. And if you get to a certain amount of NT ticks you not only do that, but you also switch targets better to reapply frostbolt debuffs and benefit in a variety of other ways.

    It's very much up for debate now I think, and I'm looking to find a better way to look at it intuitively and logically-- maybe Kuni or Nathyiel can help, but I think it requires further investigation rather than regurgitating conventional knowledge. I'm prepared to be wrong, I just want to see how crazy next tier can be if I'm right and we do become very Nether Tempest-centric of a spec.

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