1. #381
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    Did someone else some heroic PTR testing as frost? It was pretty terrible to be honest. The council fight was a real mess, had some badluck with FoF Proc and Tortos was just terrible. After 30 min I switched to Arcane on each boss, and the difference was huge!!! Way more DPS (approx 40% - 45%) and arcane was way more mobile (Arcane Explosion is priceless to keep stacks up) than frost (I know, no instants like Ice Lance or BF-FFB, but anyways).
    The Frostbolt debuff is still an issue, more than before to be honest. Because of the higher procchance from Frostbolt, you switch target with already 1 stack FoF (because you need to do focus dmg) and with the first frostbolt, you gain a second stack FoF and you have to clear one with 10% less dmg, you cast another frostbolt and gain another stack FoF and you have to clear with 5% less dmg.
    Frost feels a little bit like arcane (stationary), but without it´s damage output.

    By the way, I´ve played with the new T15 4p and my FoF Uptime (according to Skada) was only 15.9%. That´s way to low.

    Conclusion: Frost is still way behind other classes and the other mage specs (damage wise). Playingstyle is, compared to cataclysm, unsatisfying resp. insufficient. Don´t see any serious progress raider playing frost, who have to fight for his spot (if things stays unchangend).

  2. #382
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    The frost buffs and arcane changes haven't been done on the ptr yet and invocation is still removing all mana regen and there's still lots of number tweaking to do.

    What you've said is exactly the same as what I've thought about frost from my experience in lfr. I'm waiting for the new build hopefully going up now and hoping it will fix a few problems.
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  3. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathyiel View Post
    FB means frostbolt, not frostbomb.
    Read the question again. You completely failed to understand what i asked.

  4. #384
    If you have additional ticks of NT (or LB I suppose) due to haste, is the brain freeze proc per tick reduced, or is it always 9% regardless?

    e.g.
    - 100%/12 = 8.33 ~ 9%
    - 100%/14 = 7.14 ~ 8%?

  5. #385
    Fairly certain its always 9% for NT and 25% for LB - this allows average procs per minute to scale with haste the same way it does with Frostbomb

  6. #386
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keiyra View Post
    Fairly certain its always 9% for NT and 25% for LB - this allows average procs per minute to scale with haste the same way it does with Frostbomb
    Correct. It's part of why haste is so good for frost.

  7. #387
    Okay, Fingers of Frost question for you guys:

    Summary: Do you sit on a FoF proc in order to keep the mastery benefit?

    A bit of further explination:

    When you get a FoF proc, you have 15 seconds to use it. For about 12 of those seconds, if you don't use it, you get your Mastery bonus (Frostburn, Extra damage to frozen targets, yada yada yada...) So do you sit on that FoF? Or do you just blow through it with an Ice Lance as soon as it comes up?

    Most serious Frost mages I ask burn it as ASAP. Does not holding on to it for most of the cooldown for the free Frostburn DPS not make sense? And if not, could somebody explain why not?

    Obviously, spending the FoF before the proc drops off is important, as is spending any 2nd proc that comes up so you don't hit loose procs to the 2-proc ceiling...

    Thanks for any feedback.


    -Pathway

  8. #388
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Not sure I follow. FoF literally only allows benefits the one ice lance you cast with it. It doesn't activate the mastery for frostbolt/bombs/orb.

  9. #389
    Quote Originally Posted by Pathway View Post
    For about 12 of those seconds, if you don't use it, you get your Mastery bonus (Frostburn, Extra damage to frozen targets, yada yada yada...)
    This is where you are confused. The fingers of frost buff does NOT apply the mastery bonus to all spells cast while it is up. The FoF buff simply allows mastery bonus damage on that 1 Ice Lance. Same way brain freeze allows mastery bonus damage on that 1 Frostfire bolt.

    When you don't have either a FoF proc or BF proc, your mastery does nothing for your damage - with the exception of buffing your water elemental damage passively. This is of course in regards to a pve boss. Trash, and players in pvp who can be frozen do take increased damage from any spell that hits them while frozen (that's why frost nova/petfreeze just before a frost bomb goes off is sexy dps

    Going back to the sitting on 1 FoF charge. The only times I would usually sit on 1 charge: is if you know you'll be moving soon and want to save the instant, you'll shortly need it for burst (elegon sparks), you are stacking towards full buffs for alter time, refreshing frostbolt debuff or NT/LB dot before it drops.

    That being said, there is no harm in sitting on the 1 stack of FoF for a while - there's no real gain (the scenarios i just mentioned above are more qol and good play, not really a gain in dps) - but there is no loss either, as long as you do cast Icelance before the FoF expires.
    Last edited by Keiyra; 2013-02-26 at 09:39 PM.

  10. #390
    Quote Originally Posted by Keiyra View Post
    This is where you are confused. The fingers of frost buff does NOT apply the mastery bonus to all spells cast while it is up. The FoF buff simply allows mastery bonus damage on that 1 Ice Lance. Same way brain freeze allows mastery bonus damage on that 1 Frostfire bolt. .
    After reading your replies and re-reading the tooltip, I see you're right. I was under the impressions that FoF caused your next target to act as if it was frozen, no matter what spell you threw at it. (Perhaps it was this way before?)

    Bah. Mastery _is_ the throw away stat. Time to re-spec.

    Thanks everyone.

    --Pathway

    Edit: Fixed a misspelling.
    Last edited by Pathway; 2013-02-26 at 09:11 PM.

  11. #391
    I think it actually did originally, but it lost that ability long ago, if it ever had it.

  12. #392
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    It worked that way in Wrath, somewhat. Frostbolt both benefitted from FoF and consumed it.

    It did briefly work how you described exactly during one of the beta patches. Quickly removed, as it was just annoying.

  13. #393
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    I have made some calculation for a formula to give crit rating needed for shatter cap, in function of intellect on your armory.

    crit rating = 12,914.59 - 0.248652 * intellect
    precision : +/- 1 crit rating (not %)

    include :
    food : +300 int
    flask : +1000 int
    class crit : +0.91%
    intel buff : +5% intel
    crit buff : +5% crit

    not include : alchemist buff, pandaren buff, worgen 1% and molten armor.

    formula used :
    raid_intel (rating) = 1.05*(gear_intel+1.05*(food+flask+panda+alchi)
    raid_crit (%) = (gear_crit/600) + (raid_intel/2,533.6636) + crit_buff + worgen + class_crit + molten_armor
    crit cap (%) = 28-raid_crit
    crit cap (rating) = 600*(28-raid_crit)
    The answers is 42
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  14. #394
    Looking into 5.2, what is the conventional wisdom for haste breakpoints? I've seen some different wisdom on this out there, so I was hoping to get clarification. Is it for 1.0 second frostbolts under heroism?

  15. #395
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by breue View Post
    Looking into 5.2, what is the conventional wisdom for haste breakpoints? I've seen some different wisdom on this out there, so I was hoping to get clarification. Is it for 1.0 second frostbolts under heroism?
    1 second frostbolts (100% haste) is definitely the major breakpoint for frost. At some point we'll go for crit instead of haste but its hard to tell when since we have a trinket, a meta gem and possibly a racial that all affects haste.

    There's also a chance that gemmings will change at certain gear levels as haste's value decreases and Intellects value increases.

    I'm sure we'll get some more definite information once the patch has been out a bit and simcraft is updated.
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  16. #396
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    From all SimC that I have run, I can tell that Int > hastex2 in almost every case. But not by far.
    Globally : 1 int / 0.44 haste / 0.43 crit / 0.40 mastery (for T15H with haste > 50%).
    It will change a lot with gear but I haven't see haste values goes more than 1.48.
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  17. #397
    I have also seen the same as Nathyiel regarding int vs. haste when running my character on SimC w/ PTR. SimC boosts your score a lot with more int, preferring Valor-upgraded gear even if the secondary stats are suboptimal.

    From my actual PTR testing on dummies, optimizing my live mage to Frost is also giving me 10k more dps than mastery arcane, and Fire is way too unreliable at my crit level, even at 1.3 CM - and doesn't even pass Frost in the best I've seen.

    I will have to re-evaluate once I see the fights more, but all my testing (actual and simulated) indicates Frost will be still the strongest mage spec for me starting out.

  18. #398
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    Nathyiel, have you already taken the additional coefficient for Sinister Primal Diamond into account? Sims with my T14 heroic gear (ilvl 509) shows 2 Haste > 1 Int > Crit > Mastery (very close), but my gut feeling tells me Int / Haste.

  19. #399
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    For SimC, it was made with the previous proc rate (less ppm than now). I have to wait for SimC dev (lhiv ?) to implement it.
    But a better proc rate will only result in more haste, decreasing is values a little more.

    But the change on haste for rppm proc can change SimC result as I don't know how it will be implemented.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-05 at 12:13 AM ----------

    Ok, SimC dev seem to be on it. there's also an interesting information as the Sinisters seem to be "increase spell casting" and not increased haste, so I don't help for rppm proc.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-05 at 12:16 AM ----------

    more information tomorrow. need confirmation. I don't thinks SimC could be run "correctly" before Saturday.
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  20. #400
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    GC just updated proc rate for all classes/specs:

    Sinister

    0.761 Arcane
    0.302 Fire Mage
    1.387 Frost Mage
    0.625 Affliction
    0.598 Demonology
    0.509 Destruction
    1.891 Elemental
    1.872 Moonkin
    0.933 Shadow

    That look pretty awesome, tbh. That mean for frost 1.18 base RealPPM * 1.387 = 1.63666 PPM

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