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  1. #1
    Old God
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    Future of Europe Group - European Army

    Anyone els think the whole report is BS?

    For those who don't know the final report is backed by the foreign ministers of 11 EU member states (Austria, Belgium, Denmark, France, Italy, Germany, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Poland, Portugal and Spain), and is basically a "plan" for a federal European "country", including a future establishment of a European Army.

    How the heck would they ever get that to work, there is so many conflicting areas here, member states need to keep their sovereignty when it comes to the military. Imagine the discussion in a future European parliament in case something would come up, on one hand you would have Germany which always tries to avoid conflicts on the other hand you would have the likes of France or the UK which are much more expeditionary, at least if one goes by modern times. For example look at the EU mandate for EU NAVFOR, France, UK and a few others wants a more aggressive mandate but Germany and a couple of others wants to go easy, so as always when it comes to the EU we end up with something inbetween, which isn't always bad, but it isn't always the best either, I simply can't see how it would ever work out when you got countries with conflicting opinions, we always end up with some kind of compromise that rarely is the optimal solution.

    Sure there could be some advantages, better interoperability and more streamlined forces, more capital for R&D, maybe more efficient and cost effective procurement of equipment etc... but nothing stops countries from working together on big projects as it is, Eurofighter for example.

    For those who want to be part of a military alliance there is already NATO.

    I guess the combined forces would be able of more power projection as well, but again, NATO is there for those who want part of it.

    If one plays with the idea of hypothetically combined EU military this is what it would look like currently.

    European military budget: €194 billion, 1.6% of European Unions GDP
    European military personnel: 1,695,122(active), 2,614,491(reserve), 755,034(paramilitary), 5,064,647(total), around 70,000 currently deployed
    European Air Forces: 2012 estimated, 2,115 serviceable combat aircrafts(fighter aircraft and ground-attack aircraft) 268 Eurofighter, 364 Tornado, 92 Rafale, 211 Mirage 2000, 39 Mirage F1, 162 JAS Gripen, 415 F-16, 148 F/A-18, 425 others. + 569 transport, tanker and air-lift aircraft.
    European Naval Forces: 600 warships, that number does not include support ships of any kind. 6 aircraft carriers, (the largest is the Charles de Gaulle), 58 submarines, 111 major surface warships(destroyers/frigates), 58 corvettes, 18 amphibious assault ship, etc.
    European Land Forces: No idea.
    The nerve is called the "nerve of awareness". You cant dissect it. Its a current that runs up the center of your spine. I dont know if any of you have sat down, crossed your legs, smoked DMT, and watch what happens... but what happens to me is this big thing goes RRRRRRRRRAAAAAWWW! up my spine and flashes in my brain... well apparently thats whats going to happen if I do this stuff...

  2. #2
    The Brits and the Germans teamed up would be a bit of a force if history is anything to by. That's all I have to add here..

  3. #3
    I would see it as good alternative (and politically not so touchy) for NATO as long as Finland gets to keep it traditional defense forces. It might even give us a chance to invest more to it instead of stripping down
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  4. #4
    Pit Lord Urti's Avatar
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    And the slow but inexorable slide towards the United States of Europe continues.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by roflpot View Post
    The Brits and the Germans teamed up would be a bit of a force if history is anything to by. That's all I have to add here..
    "history" being the key word. The Germans have no force projection whatsoever and a very small military that hasn't done anything in over 60 years. The Brits have little force projection and a small force aswell which is being cut down in size by an additional 30,000.

  6. #6
    I am Murloc! ita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilian View Post
    I would see it as good alternative (and politically not so touchy) for NATO as long as Finland gets to keep it traditional defense forces. It might even give us a chance to invest more to it instead of stripping down
    Not a chance:P If Russia or China attacks, we could always give them Finland as a bargaining chip..
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urti View Post
    And the slow but inexorable slide towards the United States of Europe continues.
    Hopefully not! :P

    I think the whole report is absurd. Not sure how anyone can stand by it.
    The nerve is called the "nerve of awareness". You cant dissect it. Its a current that runs up the center of your spine. I dont know if any of you have sat down, crossed your legs, smoked DMT, and watch what happens... but what happens to me is this big thing goes RRRRRRRRRAAAAAWWW! up my spine and flashes in my brain... well apparently thats whats going to happen if I do this stuff...

  8. #8
    For the people against a european nation, are you also against the american nation (united states of america)?

  9. #9
    The Insane smrund's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urti View Post
    And the slow but inexorable slide towards the United States of Europe continues.
    It is inevitable. Nations have been condensing from smaller into larger for centuries and benefiting greatly from it. It is inevitable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
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  10. #10
    Yay.

    Then we can finally begin construction of the Death Sta...i mean...mt.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    It is inevitable. Nations have been condensing from smaller into larger for centuries and benefiting greatly from it. It is inevitable.
    what's the benefit? loss of democracy, loss of sovereignty, loss of culture are all I can see

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Vokal View Post
    Yay.

    Then we can finally begin construction of the Death Sta...i mean...mt.
    Germans have already begun construction on that, its the true reason we stay out of current conflicts we need all our funding funneled to the dark side of the moon.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    For the people against a european nation, are you also against the american nation (united states of america)?
    No, lol.... I guess I would support a state breaking off if they can do so peacefully. Is that in the constitution?
    The nerve is called the "nerve of awareness". You cant dissect it. Its a current that runs up the center of your spine. I dont know if any of you have sat down, crossed your legs, smoked DMT, and watch what happens... but what happens to me is this big thing goes RRRRRRRRRAAAAAWWW! up my spine and flashes in my brain... well apparently thats whats going to happen if I do this stuff...

  14. #14
    Mechagnome Sfidt's Avatar
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    No fu**ing federation anymore, no fucking one european army for fu*k's sake. We wan't sovereign and independent countries not countries being controlled by dominants like France or Germany in EU.

    @Raybourne You are either totally ignorant or dumb. Whole process of USA shaping was vastly different than Europe. USA have been a cultural mix since the very beginning unlike Europe which has been thrown from one war to another and national differences, conflicts history is much more deeper. They haven't been pillaged every freaking century, and the only war which have really damaged their land was American Civil War (American War of Independence wasn't that bad at all, and I don't count slaughtering Indians either). Whole this mixing isn't really sincere and is against diversity, beauty of nations and culture that has been built for centuries.
    Making one army won't help at all (it won't really make much difference anyway - most EU countries are so dependent they can't say their army is their own). It would only make people realize how bad it is.

    .infracted.
    Last edited by Fuzzzie; 2012-10-02 at 04:03 AM.
    S.H.

  15. #15
    I personally want the United Kingdom to stay independent, because we have so much history and I don't want it to be gobbled up and forgotten, but also the fact that the EU makes you pay so much to be in it, but you get so little in return. Sure you get free trade with EU member states but the current situation is that every country in Europe is broke except for Germany. I'd rather see the EU just be something for European nations to trade, because what its turning into is something I do not want.

    And yes, I want the UK to leave the EU and just be a trade partner like Norway

  16. #16
    Things gonna get pretty lame around 2042

  17. #17
    Fluffy Kitten Wikiy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    what's the benefit? loss of democracy, loss of sovereignty, loss of culture are all I can see
    Err, some of us would love to lose the sovereignty of our countries and the blending (if that's really what it takes) of cultures so our children could live in a better country. So they could call themselves Europeans first and anything else second. Let's not talk about the financial, economic, linguistic or political benefits. Or the fact it would make wars seem even more impossible to happen in Europe ever again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    For the people against a european nation, are you also against the american nation (united states of america)?
    A hypothetical federal Europe wouldn't actually have to have 1 nation. In this regard, it could just as well be called a confederation. Various groups of people choosing to call themselves one nation just for political interests. Eventually, yes, it would turn into a European nation, much like America is today (although it would take far, far longer for differences to disappear) but i don't see anything bad about that at all. Yes, it makes us all warm and fuzzy to think about our countries, to have national pride, etc., but in the end, if you think about it, if we created a federal Europe, in 500 years people wouldn't give half a shit about their original countries. Nor would they have to. There's nothing beneficial about it. It just makes us feel warm and fuzzy.

    Don't get me wrong. I love my country. I love its history, i love the language, i love the people, i love living here, i love most things about it. But why the frak should that stop me from thinking it's ALL worth sacrificing for a vision of a united Europe? Yes, i like that vision. I like the vision of a united world too. I also like the prospect of Europeans, Americans, Africans, etc., having to give up their nationalism to unite, just as i believe Europeans will have to rather soon. Call me naive, futuristic or idealistic, but i do believe all of it will eventually happen.

    OT: Jackmoves, what "report" are you talking about? In fact, is this thread motivated by some recent political activity concerning this particular topic? If yes, could you please link me a news report on that or something?
    Last edited by Wikiy; 2012-10-01 at 09:42 PM.

  18. #18
    The Insane Catta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    For the people against a european nation, are you also against the american nation (united states of america)?
    I dont give a rat's ass whether or not the US stays a nation or not. Im neither for or against it. I am, however, against my own country, which happens to be European, gives off too much sovereignty. So yea, im against a European nation because it involves exactly that.

  19. #19
    Bloodsail Admiral Horrid Crow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    For the people against a european nation, are you also against the american nation (united states of america)?
    How do those two even compare? Europe is a continent with 50 countries, all with different cultures, languages and customs.
    What is worth fighting for?

  20. #20
    Fluffy Kitten Wikiy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tedsterz View Post
    I personally want the United Kingdom to stay independent, because we have so much history and I don't want it to be gobbled up and forgotten, but also the fact that the EU makes you pay so much to be in it, but you get so little in return. Sure you get free trade with EU member states but the current situation is that every country in Europe is broke except for Germany. I'd rather see the EU just be something for European nations to trade, because what its turning into is something I do not want.

    And yes, I want the UK to leave the EU and just be a trade partner like Norway
    Are you aware Britain pays 0.6% of its GDP a year to the EU? Do you know how little that is? Do you also really expect the EU to give your money while there are far poorer countries in the Union that need it much more than you do? When it comes to EU taking and giving money, it functions mostly like an aid institution. The more developed countries paying so the EU can give the money to the less developed countries, where this money is worth anything up to 5 times more than in the UK.

    Either way, yes, you should leave if you're not comfortable with paying 0.6% of your GDP in aid to European countries that had it worse off in the last 70 years.
    Last edited by Wikiy; 2012-10-01 at 09:56 PM.

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