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  1. #41
    Titan Kalyyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackmoves View Post
    Germany which always tries to avoid conflicts
    Only for the extremely brief moment of history we are currently in, of course.

    Give 'em time. They'll be back. The Germans always come back.

  2. #42
    So this is why the portuguese minister of foreign affairs was out of the country for so long...

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Pud'n View Post
    As opposed to the U.S. where everyone is exactly the same no matter what area you live in?
    I think that you are not understanding something very important. Europe is not the same as the European Union. Trying to unite Europe would be like trying to unite America, the continent, not like trying to unite the various states that comprise the United States of America. What is more, except the differences in culture, language and customs, there is a centuries-old perception of national independency in most countries. This is not the New World, where things were fluid once upon a time. There are a lot of concepts that feel established. And have been for a long time.

    I think that most europeans living in countries inside the European Union enjoy some of its aspects, like the freedom to travel without much hussle, the common currency, the various economical-developmet programs, etc. But most cherish their independency at the same time. So, any steps that are thought of to be taken in the matter, should be taken with that fine balance in consideration. If not, the whole construction is not going to last long. People throughout Europe are wary of being absorbed in single political entities, and rightfully so.

    Personally I like the environment of common cooperation, the partial common societal concepts, and the sense of a european community, although I do not fool myself to think they exist for anything else other than to make high-value business easier. But, at the first sight of danger to my nation's independency I am all for leaving the European Union as fast as possible. I do not even trust my country's politicians to represent me and my wishes to the Parliament, much less some committee over which I will have a miniscule of influence on. I don't want my country to be run by people that don't answer to me and my countrymen for their actions.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Pud'n View Post
    As opposed to the U.S. where everyone is exactly the same no matter what area you live in?
    Let's not be childishly stupid and pretend the level of difference is anywhere similar to the difference between EU countries.

    The U.S. was also a gradual process of integration of foreigners largely conforming to the WASP majority over time. The initial stock of people were by and large from a similar country, with similar experiences, and all used to English society/law. Where the immigrants came from may have changed but the majority they all acculturated to stayed the same. And even then it wasn't without some intense issues including multiple threats of succession, actually succession, and tons of state sanctioned violence against minorities(go go Native American treatment!).

    Yes America has regional and cultural differences. But when I move from Nevada to Maine I have to adjust to a change in weather and accent and maybe a few differences in the legal system. Not so if I moved the same distance in Europe.


    edit- The above posters comparison to uniting Europe like uniting all of the Americas is excellent. The U.S.A is not remotely the same.
    Last edited by shimerra; 2012-10-02 at 03:19 AM.
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilian View Post
    Well, that was mostly because Sweden didn't have any army to speak of during WW2 but some volunteers did come over here to help Finland. Norway was occupied by Germany so it didn't really have much to say in anything.

    And I'm not actually sure if the Nordic/Scandinavia defense pact thing is going on yet, I know it has been talked about for a very long time now but as far as I know, it has still remained on a level of speech rather than anything that really matters.

    And I wouldn't write off Russian invasion, they have still very huge army around our borders just rock throw's distance away and they have been lately flexing their muscles in all different kinds of world events. <.<
    Well they've not completely written it off, reinforcing Gotland has been up for discussion several times, it's really the only strategically important place in Sweden for the Russians, beef up that island with some coastal land-to-sea robots(mobile robot 17), anti-air and half a batallion of mech inf and it would be all good, it would simply cost them too much to take the island.

    If the russians came over the baltic sea tomorrow they wouldn't have too much trouble, if they made it past the Airforce, they can deploy 4 Ropucha ships with 2400 marines, 40 tanks and 48 other armoured vehicles in hours and there is nothing we got on Gotland currently that could stop that.

    If they put their whole baltic force in motion it would take time for them to mobilize but that would really stink for all of us.
    They got the 76th airborn division, 6000 - 8000 men, including Spetsnaz units in Pskov south of St Petersburg
    The 79th mech brigade. 4500 men, 41 MBTs + loads of different artillery and other armoured vehicles in Kaliningrad
    336th. Marine brigade, 2 mech batallions with 2x36 T-90s + 4 batallions marines in Baltijsk, Kaliningrad.
    9 big amphibious warfare ships to ship it all over with + S-400 anti-air batteries that cover most of the baltic area, also located in Kaliningrad. And thats just some of it, the stuff at the top of my mind.

    The only advantage is that they only got around 50 fighter jets in the region. We got 72 on the baltic coast.
    There is very little anyone can do if they would choose to attack Estonia for example, including NATO unless they want to start an all out war.
    Last edited by Jackmoves; 2012-10-02 at 03:33 AM.
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  6. #46
    Elemental Lord Snowraven's Avatar
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    I think a common EU army is good. Less spending by each state for their own army, a better equipped army but smaller (since now some countries have armies of 100k men with shit tech for 10 million people, way too much) means less spending for all but a better trained and equipped army.


    That said, the country views would work like in a parliament with different parties. Germany votes no, France and UK vote yes, so majority wins.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-02 at 11:38 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikiy View Post
    Are you aware Britain pays 0.6% of its GDP a year to the EU? Do you know how little that is? Do you also really expect the EU to give your money while there are far poorer countries in the Union that need it much more than you do? When it comes to EU taking and giving money, it functions mostly like an aid institution. The more developed countries paying so the EU can give the money to the less developed countries, where this money is worth anything up to 5 times more than in the UK.

    Either way, yes, you should leave if you're not comfortable with paying 0.6% of your GDP in aid to European countries that had it worse off in the last 70 years.
    Agreed with this, only with a catch, if UK leaves I don't want them to be a partner, and many countries won't either for they'll feel betrayed in a way.


    And then UK people, you'll see how much the cost of goods can rise from export when there's taxes, you'll see how much you need to wait at the border control when entering Europe in plus from normal etc.

    You think getting out of UK would be good for you? Haha, why do you think Greece isn't leaving for example then, I mean some of their major problems come from the EU. Because leaving EU, especially in the time we're in, would be economical suicide.
    That said, I've got enough of the UK bullshit, after the fact you pay one a small contribution and don't even apply many EU regulations and laws and we look the other way, it's still you being high and mighty and thinking you're better then everyone. Romania pays like 10% of our money to the EU and because of crap ministers we get less then that, and did you ever hear us complain? No? We only complained about our ministers. Because we understand fighting for the good of all, not for the good of a select few. We understand that all on this planet are equal and we all should get equal choices, and especially when you are part of a over-country structure like the EU, you need to give everyone inside an equal life standard.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnorei View Post
    I think a common EU army is good. Less spending by each state for their own army, a better equipped army but smaller (since now some countries have armies of 100k men with shit tech for 10 million people, way too much) means less spending for all but a better trained and equipped army.


    That said, the country views would work like in a parliament with different parties. Germany votes no, France and UK vote yes, so majority wins.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-02 at 11:38 AM ----------


    Agreed with this, only with a catch, if UK leaves I don't want them to be a partner, and many countries won't either for they'll feel betrayed in a way.


    And then UK people, you'll see how much the cost of goods can rise from export when there's taxes, you'll see how much you need to wait at the border control when entering Europe in plus from normal etc.

    You think getting out of UK would be good for you? Haha, why do you think Greece isn't leaving for example then, I mean some of their major problems come from the EU. Because leaving EU, especially in the time we're in, would be economical suicide.
    That said, I've got enough of the UK bullshit, after the fact you pay one a small contribution and don't even apply many EU regulations and laws and we look the other way, it's still you being high and mighty and thinking you're better then everyone. Romania pays like 10% of our money to the EU and because of crap ministers we get less then that, and did you ever hear us complain? No? We only complained about our ministers. Because we understand fighting for the good of all, not for the good of a select few. We understand that all on this planet are equal and we all should get equal choices, and especially when you are part of a over-country structure like the EU, you need to give everyone inside an equal life standard.
    Ah yes, the good old "if you are not with us, you are against us" Europhile talk.

    As for Romania, try to stick to facts please, ever since it has joined, Romania has been a net benefactor of EU, a quick google search found some older data: .
    I am amazed why so many people think they can lie on the internet and get away with it. FYI your contribution is 1,24% of your GDP...
    Last edited by Zoranon; 2012-10-02 at 09:15 AM.
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  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    Nations have been condensing from smaller into larger for centuries and benefiting greatly from it.
    I've also seen lots of regions of countries wanting to split up, and many have also done so over the centuries.

    But I agree that a united Europe is a good thing. It's inevitable if we want to be a global player and not be trampled by the US, China or whoever.
    The only thing that scares people is losing their culture and identity. What if the person in charge of the EU doesn't have my interests at heart? What if cultures like the German or British one will completely usurp others? That's what's scaring people.

    If done right, it's the greatest thing to happen to Europe. If done poorly, well... let's just say there will be riots. Maybe even wars.

  9. #49
    Scarab Lord GreatOak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alakir the Windlord View Post
    Another victim of populist rhetoric. The UK is one of the countries who pays the least to the EU in % of GDP.

    A single EU military with a single budget would be very beneficial. Most EU militaries pale in comparisson to the other world powers, we need more colaboration to achieve better results and a single military is the correct step.
    Britain stays with America, Japan, South Korea, and the commonwealth.
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  10. #50
    The Unstoppable Force RICH816's Avatar
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    No thanks, keep your EU Army. I for one want to see a union of the Anglo countries, Thats the UK, USA, Canada, New Zealand, Australia. It would be a force to be reckoned with, as well as one heck of a party.

  11. #51
    Scarab Lord GreatOak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drithiend View Post
    I think that you are not understanding something very important. Europe is not the same as the European Union. Trying to unite Europe would be like trying to unite America, the continent, not like trying to unite the various states that comprise the United States of America.

    Uniting North America wouldn't be hard at all. We have a lot of Mexicans here and Canada is barely a different country already. The smaller nations wouldn't change much.
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  12. #52
    The Unstoppable Force RICH816's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Uniting North America wouldn't be hard at all. We have a lot of Mexicans here and Canada is barely a different country already. The smaller nations wouldn't change much.
    He means the whole of America, including the south.

  13. #53
    Scarab Lord GreatOak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RICH1471 View Post
    No thanks, keep your EU Army. I for one want to see a union of the Anglo countries, Thats the UK, USA, Canada, New Zealand, Australia. It would be a force to be reckoned with, as well as one heck of a party.
    hear, hear

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-02 at 12:57 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by RICH1471 View Post
    He means the whole of America, including the south.
    Oh, I forgot some countries consider us all part of one continent.
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  14. #54
    I got no other comment than in the future we will probably have:

    The people in the state with the army and with the currency.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikiy View Post
    Err, some of us would love to lose the sovereignty of our countries and the blending (if that's really what it takes) of cultures so our children could live in a better country. So they could call themselves Europeans first and anything else second. Let's not talk about the financial, economic, linguistic or political benefits. Or the fact it would make wars seem even more impossible to happen in Europe ever again.
    Actually that's the very recipe for wars. Look at what happened to Yugoslavia. Personally I don't think there's any reason to try and copy the US model, Europe is just a completely different case in all kinds of aspects. What should be done, however, is make sure everyone in Europe has a common second language. Just pick one (practicalities imply English, but whatever works) and teach it to every kid starting from 1st grade.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalyyn View Post
    Only for the extremely brief moment of history we are currently in, of course.

    Give 'em time. They'll be back. The Germans always come back.
    haha i was going to say something about this. Germanys history since 1871 is stay out of the spotlight until they're strong enough to push the rest of the countries around. failed twice but yeah.

    Anyways the amount of nationalism is actually astounding in this thread. Though i can see why we were bred on it a long time ago and whether our parents meant for it or not it usually gets picked up by us.

    Personally it seems stupid from my point of view( i live in the U.S) there's no way in hell Europe as a whole would every united under 1 banned. Europeans have been fighting themselves forever over sovereignty and now they'll just give it away? >.>

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalyyn View Post
    Only for the extremely brief moment of history we are currently in, of course.

    Give 'em time. They'll be back. The Germans always come back.
    haha!

    I don't think so though, WW2 changed things fundamentally. I don't think we will ever see the likes of it again on European soil. Not between Germany/France/UK etc at least.
    The nerve is called the "nerve of awareness". You cant dissect it. Its a current that runs up the center of your spine. I dont know if any of you have sat down, crossed your legs, smoked DMT, and watch what happens... but what happens to me is this big thing goes RRRRRRRRRAAAAAWWW! up my spine and flashes in my brain... well apparently thats whats going to happen if I do this stuff...

  18. #58
    Mechagnome Alakir the Windlord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Britain stays with America, Japan, South Korea, and the commonwealth.
    Good, the farthest it stays from us the better.

  19. #59
    The Unstoppable Force RICH816's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alakir the Windlord View Post
    Good, the farthest it stays from us the better.
    With an attitude like yours can you blame us?

  20. #60
    Scarab Lord GreatOak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alakir the Windlord View Post
    Good, the farthest it stays from us the better.
    Why should they even be in the EU? I think it's insulting. The UK is too great to lose its sovereignty and rich history to some bureaucratic nightmare. They can still trade and fuel their economy without it. Not everyone likes centralized power. If a Euro-army was made they would have to carry most of the weight anyways. It's not like most European nations have that much to contribute.

    I can see it now! France, Germany, and Britain....and Friends! Perhaps the reason they prefer us over the EU is be ause we actually like them and respect their sovereignty, even if they still have that decrepit old lady on the throne.
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