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  1. #1

    Instances - Am I the only one frustrated about them?

    First of all I like many aspects of GW2, its a great game and I am having alot of fun exploring what the game has to offer.
    Instances though, I have had some good times and some extremely frustrating times in instances.

    I have had the opportunity now at level 60 to run the first 3 story modes versions and several explorable versions of the instances. I have probably run a total of 12 instances so far (story mode several times for different guildies). My experience isn't large in this area which is why I am hoping people will tell me that it gets better or there are GW2 specific tactics that I am missing (outside of dodging, focus fire, ect) to make these more enjoyable.

    I play melee, portions of the instance experience were with a warrior and most with a guardian. I also understand there is a learning curve, I am hoping some players can shed some tips on how to do better as a group in instances.

    Some Trash pulls are just nuts, there are ground mechanics to avoid but there is also unavoidable damage that goes out to the group based on who the enemy has aggro on.How does aggro work? Sometimes i think its proximity, sometimes i think its the first to hit the mob, sometimes i think its an actual threat number based off damage (as seen when my wife AoEs the shit out of a pack and instantly gets aggrod/gibbed)

    Alot of the utility abilities I use as a Guardian (shouts) have a range limitation on them so they work well on a bunched up group, but the combat pushes you to always be moving out of traps, dodging, reviving, ect which is a very fun aspect and adds some new elements. However this seems to cause people to be spread out alot and my abilities only hit 60% of the group alot of times.

    Is the idea to constantly be spreading to dodge then collapsing afterwards kind of like synchronzied swimming exhibition?

    I play melee but find it impossible to tell whats going on with all the spell effects going on. I also have over time learned that you can't stand in melee all the time you need to be going in and out of melee range.I find it extremely hard to track CC in the instances, if the group is focusing mob A and B and C are running around, I find it hard to know if they are Blinded or not or what is going on in general with them outside of if its melee kite it and possibly root it. Ranged mobs just seem to roll face regardless.

    Please anyone who can share some insight or tips on how to instance in GW2 better please share. I have done pug runs and guild runs in vent as well so I could coordinate better if that is a solution.

    The difficulty is fun and a breath of fresh air, but the frustrating aspect of doing these instances is bothering me. Thanks for you feedback ahead of time.

  2. #2
    I do agree that it can be really difficult to tell what is going on with all of the spell effects. In addition to that the mobs don't always give a decent "tell" to their big hitters. I think if they cleaned up those two aspects a bit then you wouldn't have nearly the amount of complaints about dungeons (other than the tokens situation).

    Anyway, I have only done a few dungeons and won't be doing much more of them until they are refined a bit.

  3. #3
    I'm not digging them either. I'm level 75 and I've done three story modes. They've all been corpse-hopping wipefests. They don't seem worthwhile to pursue at the moment, and my rewards are greater exploring lower level content and farming.

    In all honesty I think the problem is me. I'm not going into the dungeons with the correct mentality. As time goes on the collective intelligence of the player base for these instances will increase and likewise I'll be better "trained" for these things.

  4. #4
    I agree there is a learning curve as the first time i did each story mode it was much worse than each next time i did it. Knowing what mobs do what, the 3 ranger pull in AC for example. The instances just are not remotely as fun as the rest of the game for me and I can see once im level 80 with everything explored it will be one of the main things to do. I like difficulty in games but not Battletoads type difficulty (if you get that reference you rock) where its frustrating and banging your head against the wall or in most cases running back from a GY.

    I just ran story mode AC for the 5th time last night with some friends, 4 of us been there before, 1 new person. The 4 of us 3x 60+ and 1 80 and the new person 32 it was still a frustrating experience I pulled 2 melee away from the group to watch an elementalist annihilate 3 people in a matter of seconds.

    Then I am unable to take hits from 2 melee for more than 5 seconds, I find myself kiting melee around as a Guardian with toughness/healing/vitality gear and traits, which really really bothers me.

  5. #5
    The Patient Myah's Avatar
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    I dont really look foward on doing any of the instances, it takes a long time to complete and some of them take so many deaths. The CoF buff was really frustrating

  6. #6
    Moderator Shamanic's Avatar
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    We've had some long threads on dungeons already, they get a lot of love and a lot of hate. You can probably still find some of the long threads on them but to be honest....

    Is the idea to constantly be spreading to dodge then collapsing afterwards kind of like synchronzied swimming exhibition?
    Kinda? I mean, the thing is, you're not always going to be able to get all your group with your buffs and that an be a little frustrating, I play a support elementalist so I have 3 things I need to watch out for 1) giving people buffs, 2) removing conditions, 3) sending out some support heals - all three require people to be in a fairly tight range and in these dungeons well, it does mean that often I'm hitting 1 - 2 - maybe 3 people, rarely all 5. Sometimes you have to choose where you want to be. I'll always aim my heals at whoever is being focused and people will have to move into my field of happy if they want to get regen out of it.

    In story mode especially, trash can be especially brutal to low level/inexperiened groups, especially some ranged pull trash. I personally found it frustrating at level 30 when trash in Ac was harder than the bosses!

    I think the trash/boss diffiulty is a lot better in explorables personally. I've done all the story modes multiple times, and around 14 different explorable paths right now (some of them farmed quite a lot).

    I think explorables are a million times more fun than story modes myself.

    If you're finding melee frustrating you could try rolling a ranged - as guardian you've got the least range in the game which I have found pretty frustrating on mine.

    Ac is also one of the worst instances in my humble opinion for trash being a pain in the butt so it's definitely worth giving all the others a go before getting too frustrated. I personally find all 3 paths of Ac explorable more fun than storymode.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by jearle View Post
    First of all I like many aspects of GW2, its a great game and I am having alot of fun exploring what the game has to offer.
    Instances though, I have had some good times and some extremely frustrating times in instances.

    I have had the opportunity now at level 60 to run the first 3 story modes versions and several explorable versions of the instances. I have probably run a total of 12 instances so far (story mode several times for different guildies). My experience isn't large in this area which is why I am hoping people will tell me that it gets better or there are GW2 specific tactics that I am missing (outside of dodging, focus fire, ect) to make these more enjoyable.

    I play melee, portions of the instance experience were with a warrior and most with a guardian. I also understand there is a learning curve, I am hoping some players can shed some tips on how to do better as a group in instances.

    Some Trash pulls are just nuts, there are ground mechanics to avoid but there is also unavoidable damage that goes out to the group based on who the enemy has aggro on.How does aggro work? Sometimes i think its proximity, sometimes i think its the first to hit the mob, sometimes i think its an actual threat number based off damage (as seen when my wife AoEs the shit out of a pack and instantly gets aggrod/gibbed)

    Alot of the utility abilities I use as a Guardian (shouts) have a range limitation on them so they work well on a bunched up group, but the combat pushes you to always be moving out of traps, dodging, reviving, ect which is a very fun aspect and adds some new elements. However this seems to cause people to be spread out alot and my abilities only hit 60% of the group alot of times.

    Is the idea to constantly be spreading to dodge then collapsing afterwards kind of like synchronzied swimming exhibition?

    I play melee but find it impossible to tell whats going on with all the spell effects going on. I also have over time learned that you can't stand in melee all the time you need to be going in and out of melee range.I find it extremely hard to track CC in the instances, if the group is focusing mob A and B and C are running around, I find it hard to know if they are Blinded or not or what is going on in general with them outside of if its melee kite it and possibly root it. Ranged mobs just seem to roll face regardless.

    Please anyone who can share some insight or tips on how to instance in GW2 better please share. I have done pug runs and guild runs in vent as well so I could coordinate better if that is a solution.

    The difficulty is fun and a breath of fresh air, but the frustrating aspect of doing these instances is bothering me. Thanks for you feedback ahead of time.
    1) Don't do Wrath (WotLK) pulls. Pull the minimum amount of mobs, sometimes you have to pull and let the others leash.
    2) Warriors/Thieves have ranged weapons for a reason. Use them when there is unavoidable damage.
    3) Blind,inturrupt,stun,confuse then Dodge the big attacks eat the the smaller minor ones. You should have enough vit/toughness to soak minor attacks.
    4) Condition removal. If you don't run with someone taking care of it, you must take care of it yourself. Example: Warrior can use soilder?(or something) runes and the final set bonus is each shout removes conditions.

    As for CC:
    Black cloud over face of mob = blind
    Chain = immobilized
    laying on the ground = knockdown

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Eggoman View Post
    1) Don't do Wrath (WotLK) pulls. Pull the minimum amount of mobs, sometimes you have to pull and let the others leash.
    2) Warriors/Thieves have ranged weapons for a reason. Use them when there is unavoidable damage.
    3) Blind,inturrupt,stun,confuse then Dodge the big attacks eat the the smaller minor ones. You should have enough vit/toughness to soak minor attacks.
    4) Condition removal. If you don't run with someone taking care of it, you must take care of it yourself. Example: Warrior can use soilder?(or something) runes and the final set bonus is each shout removes conditions.

    As for CC:
    Black cloud over face of mob = blind
    Chain = immobilized
    laying on the ground = knockdown
    1. Chain pulling isn't even an option really, everything I mention above regarding pulls are the minimum number of mobs that can be aggroed, I pull with a range weapon sometimes to ensure this.

    Pulling a group of mobs and running away in order for some to leash is terrible design, especially to someone like myself who has played MMOs without leashing as a mechanic. I would much rather it be that some of the mobs need be kited constantly then leashing to trim pulls.

    2. I realized very early that it is important to have a ranged alternative especially when learning the instances and mechanics, it kind of sucks that melee get the shaft though and I have to go ranged to be viable. I am hoping that in time I will be able to be a melee centric, from what I read players are just stating its a learning curve for mechanics and play.

    3. My main issue is the smaller attacks soaking. Dodging the big attacks and red circles is straight forward but the non avoidable attacks still seem to wreck my face een when traited/geared appropriately. I do admit it is very hard to get out of my classic "tanking" mentality but I would still like a decent amount of hardiness in a dungeon.

    4. Our group usually have tons of this and isnt usually a problem.

    Thanks for the tip on blind, I have never once noticed a black cloud on the face of mobs that have been blinded.

  9. #9
    I am Murloc! Xuvial's Avatar
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    GW2 dungeon difficulty seems to be balanced around graveyard zerging, which something I'm really shocked at. To put it bluntly, if they stopped GY zerging (put gates around bosses or something) then 95% of PuG groups wouldn't be able to clear any dungeons on explore - hell, even AC story would've be borderline impossible (since it's overtuned).

    The animations are very difficult to watch when the mob/boss is getting flooded with conditions, it's impossible NOT to eventually screw-up and be downed because if multiple mobs attack you at the same time your health vanishes.

    For example for CM explore we fought Sure-shot Seamus, a boss who's autoattack (rifle blast) ALWAYS knocks you down if you don't dodge it. And you have to fight him in a tiny cellar, so it was near impossible not to eventually get knocked down - and once you got knocked down, it's impossible to get back up because he uses the attack every 2 seconds (and the knockdown lasts 2 seconds) so several times we just had hillarious moments where the boss would knock 2 people down, and then continue to knock them down till they died. Reviving was impossible because the he would knock-down the person trying to revive and then THEY would get caught in the perma-knockdown loop. Eventually we got him after everyone had died 5 times and we managed to keep someone alive to stop him from resetting.
    I mean what the fuck. That's just not fair.

  10. #10
    I need LFG tool badly, as usual in any other mmo out there. Too bad that by the time they finally realise to add it, the game is already dead.
    I would also prefer them to do something about melee and make more predictable agro. I prefer to be a melee, more damage and just cooler, but I'm forced to stay on range if I want to survive.

  11. #11
    Field Marshal Bebopin's Avatar
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    I would never pug a dungeon in GW2 because a good run requires constant communication with trustworthy companions. Every time I die I think about my elite skills. What could I change to have more effective dps or survivability? I change my elite skills constantly throughout an instance.

    Most of my dungeon/raiding career I have had to learn the complexities of a fight and work around them in order to accomplish my very linear skill rotation. In GW2 I find that the fights are very simple but, I have to adapt my own skill sets along with my companions in order to maximize effectiveness. For instance, on my thief I took a skill that gives anybody standing in it stealth and heals for a small amount. I rarely used this out in the pve zone but, it is great in instances. I use this to drop aggro off of myself or anyone I see that is in trouble. I also find that each player must be willing to drop down their combo fields even if it is a detriment to their dps. Dps is not important in this game although too little and the fights will drag on and drain people's energy. People say that you need spatial awareness but, that is true of most games. You really need active cooperation. These dungeons are sometimes the most fun I have had in pve content because the fights rarely become stale and do not require absolute perfection to accomplish. Mistakes are easily remedied.

    About the complaint of zergfest. Honestly, if people die and continue doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result then they need a reality check.
    I have a propensity for rational and evolving thought... what am I doing on a forum?

  12. #12
    Dungeons made my l2switch weapon way more effectively,

    Playing a guardian i switch between a hammer for dps and staff for some extra healing when needed. When i mastered this dungeons actually became amazing
    Quote Originally Posted by laserguns View Post
    But do they have data showing how much fun players are having? Because surely that's what counts. You could have a game where only 1% of players can do the top raid but still everybody's having fun, and you could have a game where 100% of the players see everything but they're all bored and whining and quitting. Fun can't be quantified with straight-up data, and trying to use statistics to measure fun is a dangerous logical minefield.
    "The Perfect Raid Design Drawn by me .

  13. #13
    I am Murloc! Xuvial's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bebopin View Post
    About the complaint of zergfest. Honestly, if people die and continue doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result then they need a reality check.
    I don't think you understand what "zerg" implies in a GW2 dungeon. Dying =/= the fight is over, because as long as atleast 1 person stays alive (or even downed) it's possible to quickly run back and continue the fight. It's called graveyard zerging. It works, and it's the only way 90% of PuG groups even make it through explorable mode.

  14. #14
    Herald of the Titans nocturnus's Avatar
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    I think you'll start enjoying them more once you get the hang of the game.

    They seem too hard, even impossible in some scenarions. But this drastically changes from the moment you have a sit-down with your group to discuss which traits and skills you'll use and to discuss which combo-fields you'll generate. Dismissing full dps gear and traits also helps a great deal.

    This naturally means that explorables are much harder in pugs, which is intended.

    We failed the first week of explorables. We sat down, got rid of our selfish trait-builds (e.g. signet warrior) and gear sets and now we've succesfully cleared every explorable dungeon there is.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Xuvial View Post
    I don't think you understand what "zerg" implies in a GW2 dungeon. Dying =/= the fight is over, because as long as atleast 1 person stays alive (or even downed) it's possible to quickly run back and continue the fight. It's called graveyard zerging. It works, and it's the only way 90% of PuG groups even make it through explorable mode.
    Graveyard zerging is the learning curve, its not there for you to win by zerging. Its there so that when you make mistake you can learn from them so eventually you can beat the dungeon without a wipe at all.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    They seem too hard, even impossible in some scenarions. But this drastically changes from the moment you have a sit-down with your group to discuss which traits and skills you'll use and to discuss which combo-fields you'll generate. Dismissing full dps gear and traits also helps a great deal.
    This.

    If your group keep failing in some boss encounter just analyze the main reason and find the right tools to counter. Every profession has many tools that can be used effectively in dungeons to help the team. From abilities to elite skills every group should be able to find the right counter for every boss in the game.

    Of course aiming to do explorables in pugs is maybe the wrong choice at the moment. If you are not in a guild maybe just focus to do story mode and give people the time to improve thei knowledge of the game.

  17. #17
    I think 'aggro' works entirely on DPS. I've duo'd champions with randoms several times, and even when I'm ranging with my rifle I tend to get aggro just because of the damage I'm pumping out. Also Melee is kind of borked in dungeons right now. Bosses seem to have constant AOEs going on around them that are pretty much impossible to see because of all the attacks going toward them from your team.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Artorias View Post
    Also Melee is kind of borked in dungeons right now. Bosses seem to have constant AOEs going on around them that are pretty much impossible to see because of all the attacks going toward them from your team.
    Well, playing melee is quite challenging because you are dealing much damage but taking many bites too. It is important to learn when avoid and when just take the hit. Of course we must also be ready to quickly swap to ranged weapon and gaign distance to save ourselves. Playing as defensive warrior (mace/shield + longbow) i have many tools to stay alive in melee range and help he group manage the encounter (stun, daze, blocks) but even this way when in cd i swap to bow and fall back to recover healt before jumping back to the bad guy.

    I find this gameplay so much funny, way better than classic tank mechanic.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethos776 View Post
    Well, playing melee is quite challenging because you are dealing much damage but taking many bites too. It is important to learn when avoid and when just take the hit. Of course we must also be ready to quickly swap to ranged weapon and gaign distance to save ourselves. Playing as defensive warrior (mace/shield + longbow) i have many tools to stay alive in melee range and help he group manage the encounter (stun, daze, blocks) but even this way when in cd i swap to bow and fall back to recover healt before jumping back to the bad guy.

    I find this gameplay so much funny, way better than classic tank mechanic.
    Absolutely You really do have to play defensively though, and you have a huge support role to fill as a Warrior. If you go in with axes and a rifle, even if you swap back and forth frequently you're going to get aggro. It seems (guessing, based on experience so far) that aggro is based mostly on DPS, and maybe a little bit on actual proximity to target. The problem with that is that melee classes will almost always have the enemy pounding on them because they put out high DPS and are almost always close to the target. For that reason alone it is better to use something like you said (mace/shield + longbow) just to lower your own DPS and focus on support/staying alive. Personally I run Sword/Warhorn + Rifle and it works pretty well with my banner support build. Having Banner of Tactics and Strength up 100% of the time while using Warbanner for revives and rallying the party works wonders.

    Therefore I draw this conclusion: Melee Classes are intended to be heavy-armored defensive support units in dungeons.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Artorias View Post
    Therefore I draw this conclusion: Melee Classes are intended to be heavy-armored defensive support units in dungeons.
    Well it depends. In my group there are 2 warriors: one its me defensive (as posted above) and one offensive double axe warrior. When i have my control cd up he can just push hard on the mob while i stop main abilities (ofc we evade the big one). When im in cd i just call for a quick retreat and we go back to ranged slowing/kiting/running then we put down a fire combo (might x3 and fire shield) and we start again to bite him in melee range. Well its more difficult to write it than do it but with a coordinated group of friends on teamspeak its really funny.

    Just my experience ofc.

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