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  1. #81
    Sure, the game is fine without "raids" but it still could use some kind of content other than just grinding outdoor events or instances that are largely faceroll exercizes. The entire, "The whole game is endgame" thing is just weak. Really, really weak. It is absolutely nothing special at all and amounts to nothing more than marketing nonsense.

    Use WoW as an example. (Just because it's convenient, don't start with the "This isn't WoW! " stuff, guys.) Don't want to raid? Don't want to be on the "gear treadmill"? Then don't. No one is forcing you. Go out and complete all the zones, level alts, collect pets, mounts, or achievements. Farm up gold. Play the auction house. There's a TON to do if you're going to judge content by the GW2 model where exploring, completing zones, and doing events are treated as "endgame". (Of course that's mostly because WoW is so old, to be fair.)
    Last edited by Bovinity Divinity; 2012-10-04 at 04:58 PM.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post
    Not sure what you mean by multi-mode raids.
    Again, I may be wrong here but as I understand it there is; Normal, Hard and LFR modes of 10 and 25 man to a single raid.

    So like

    Normal 10
    Normal 25
    Hard 10
    Hard 25
    LFR 10
    LFR 25

    6 modes as I have come to understand it.

    Wanna stress when I played WOW many of these things didn't even exist. No doubt a lot changed. I may not understand it all correctly.


    Really, raiding isn't the end all be all to MMOs. GW2 is fine without raids
    Well, I agree. But seems like it's pretty big/popular thing within World of Warcraft. If that site is anything to go by [dubious as is], literal thousands of guilds completed at least the hard mode to 8/8.

    How many more thousands did other modes or partial progression?

    Or desperate players who raided but may not have had unified or consistent guild participation?

    Like 10 million people is a lot. And even if only say 1% of their population raided to even a casual degree- it'd still dwarf the total subscribers of many MMOs. It's even more than some F2P MMOs unique logins.

  3. #83
    Not every game has to have raids, just let it go.

  4. #84
    The Lightbringer Karizee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Again, I may be wrong here but as I understand it there is; Normal, Hard and LFR modes of 10 and 25 man to a single raid.

    So like

    Normal 10
    Normal 25
    Hard 10
    Hard 25
    LFR 10
    LFR 25

    6 modes as I have come to understand it.

    Wanna stress when I played WOW many of these things didn't even exist. No doubt a lot changed. I may not understand it all correctly.



    Well, I agree. But seems like it's pretty big/popular thing within World of Warcraft. If that site is anything to go by [dubious as is], literal thousands of guilds completed at least the hard mode to 8/8.

    How many more thousands did other modes or partial progression?

    Or desperate players who raided but may not have had unified or consistent guild participation?

    Like 10 million people is a lot. And even if only say 1% of their population raided to even a casual degree- it'd still dwarf the total subscribers of many MMOs. It's even more than some F2P MMOs unique logins.
    I was counting both 10 & 25 man. You have to complete the first boss on Normal mode to do any Heroic versions so that includes all the raiders except for anyone that's not a raider that participates in LFR. LFR people are perfectly happy with the mass event World Boss dragon events in GW2 - it's perfect really.
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  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Sure, the game is fine without "raids" but it still could use some kind of content other than just grinding outdoor events or instances that are largely faceroll exercizes. The entire, "The whole game is endgame" thing is just weak. Really, really weak. It is absolutely nothing special at all and amounts to nothing more than marketing nonsense.

    Use WoW as an example. (Just because it's convenient, don't start with the "This isn't WoW! " stuff, guys.) Don't want to raid? Don't want to be on the "gear treadmill"? Then don't. No one is forcing you. Go out and complete all the zones, level alts, collect pets, mounts, or achievements. Farm up gold. Play the auction house. There's a TON to do if you're going to judge content by the GW2 model where exploring, completing zones, and doing events are treated as "endgame". (Of course that's mostly because WoW is so old, to be fair.)
    Well, the point that you seem to be missing is that WoW and many other games do not have level downscaling mechanics. If you are level 90, it doesn't make much sense to go back to lower-level content save for that zone completion achievement. No problem with this in GW2 - and you even get level-appropriate reward. For casual players GW2 is much more attractive in this regard.

    As far as raiding goes... well, its an interesting thing, really, because raids (and dungeons) are in fact, not a MMORPG content. Rather, these are instanced (as opposed to persistent) PVE scenarios. Its very interesting to see that one of the most popular MMO mechanics actually goes a step back from MMO essence. Strictly spoken, GW2 is more of an MMO, as it offers you persistent boss fights. Of course, this is a moot point as the instanced scenarios offer more opportunities for fine-tuning and interested design. But then again, not that many people raid. When I was playing WoW, I couldn't really get into it because grinding gear bored me to death. I find GW2 dungeons much more interesting than any dungeon I did in WoW, simply because there is so much more opportunity of team-play in GW2.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by mafao View Post
    Well, the point that you seem to be missing is that WoW and many other games do not have level downscaling mechanics. If you are level 90, it doesn't make much sense to go back to lower-level content save for that zone completion achievement. No problem with this in GW2 - and you even get level-appropriate reward. For casual players GW2 is much more attractive in this regard.
    One thing I find a bit annoying about the whole downscale argument is, it's not the only one in the genre. EQ2 does an excellent job at it. Every 'named' mob in dungeons or outside mobs or whatever gives you AA exp, alternate advancement, think of it as a more extensive talent tree.
    Your downscale works by 2 methods. Mentoring, which you level downwards to a selected party member's level, or chronomancy, which levels you down in decrements of 5, and you pick whatever you want. In order to get the AA exp from the named mob (and for it to even count in your 'kill count'), you have to down level to the proper level. Now this is all manual and you get the same award and get a mark for being completionist (if that was your goal). Now this also isn't the only method to get AA, which makes it optional and for those more casual players you can do this for giggles or for completing or just to explore the content.

    Yet for some reason everyone views EQ2 as a very hardcore game when there's both raiding, then there's things like chronomancy, personal housing to mess with, guild housing, dungeon creations and many others to mess with for the casuals and hardcores.
    It does amount to exactly what Bovinity said, for the whole "TON"s to do yet every time people treat it differently for some magical reason.
    Note, I was in no means a hardcore raider in EQ2. Most of the time I did things in EQ2 was chronomancy / mess with old raids, dungeons, finding named mob, outside raid bosses, etc. Especially housing, <3

    Also, the whole griefing argument is moot. Anyone can just aggro a gigantic train and go right next to you and run off and you'd suddenly have a lot of mobs on you from someone.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post
    I was counting both 10 & 25 man. You have to complete the first boss on Normal mode to do any Heroic versions so that includes all the raiders except for anyone that's not a raider that participates in LFR. LFR people are perfectly happy with the mass event World Boss dragon events in GW2 - it's perfect really.
    I see. A strange kind of reverse elitism going on here.

    So like, you are saying only the folks 8/8 Hard Mode are raiders or participants on that specific mode of gameplay? Are you saying the LFR & normal mode people don't count to the total raid participants?

  8. #88
    Moderator Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    I see. A strange kind of reverse elitism going on here.

    So like, you are saying only the folks 8/8 Hard Mode are raiders or participants on that specific mode of gameplay? Are you saying the LFR & normal mode people don't count to the total raid participants?
    Think he means that counting via 1st boss kill.
    Which should be counted from all Tiers by the way, not just one. Remember a lot of people quit.

  9. #89
    No problem with this in GW2 - and you even get level-appropriate reward. For casual players GW2 is much more attractive in this regard.
    Well, we've had this discussion before on the board. GW2's downscaling is actually pretty bad in it's implementation at this time, as the game will also downscale the XP/Karma/money rewards for events, hearts, kills, etc. So while you CAN take your level 80 back to Caledon Forest and get some XP, it'll be about 10% of the XP you'd get from an event in Orr.

  10. #90
    The Lightbringer Karizee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    Think he means that counting via 1st boss kill.
    Which should be counted from all Tiers by the way, not just one. Remember a lot of people quit.
    It's pretty much the same across all tiers by a percentage or 2.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-04 at 12:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Well, we've had this discussion before on the board. GW2's downscaling is actually pretty bad in it's implementation at this time, as the game will also downscale the XP/Karma/money rewards for events, hearts, kills, etc. So while you CAN take your level 80 back to Caledon Forest and get some XP, it'll be about 10% of the XP you'd get from an event in Orr.
    Not true!

    This morning I did the Swamp Boss in Caledon Forest and got a lvl 80 rare Carrion Verdant Dagger of Air.

    I also did the 4 Champion event there with a few other people, got a mix of low & high level loot - nice for mats
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  11. #91
    Not true!

    This morning I did the Swamp Boss in Caledon Forest and got a lvl 80 rare Carrion Verdant Dagger of Air.

    I also did the 4 Champion event there with a few other people, got a mix of low & high level loot - nice for mats
    I didn't say anything about item loot. Yes, you'll get high level items from events, although that opens up a whole 'nother can of worms - makes it a royal pain for anyone to get Jute.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Well, we've had this discussion before on the board. GW2's downscaling is actually pretty bad in it's implementation at this time, as the game will also downscale the XP/Karma/money rewards for events, hearts, kills, etc. So while you CAN take your level 80 back to Caledon Forest and get some XP, it'll be about 10% of the XP you'd get from an event in Orr.
    Oh? I wasn't aware of that. Indeed, it sounds a bit broken. I also agree with you on the jute problem.

    Actually, when I heard about GW2 for the first time I was expecting it to have a new kind of crafting system, where every item you craft is relevant independently of the level. Something like how EVE Online works. I was disappointed that they still decided to go with that tier-based crafting system (where one tier makes the previous redundant). At least they could have implemented something like that for the materials (e.g. most armor recipes needing copper, regardless of the tier).

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Well, we've had this discussion before on the board. GW2's downscaling is actually pretty bad in it's implementation at this time, as the game will also downscale the XP/Karma/money rewards for events, hearts, kills, etc. So while you CAN take your level 80 back to Caledon Forest and get some XP, it'll be about 10% of the XP you'd get from an event in Orr.
    The lowest it seems to go is 50%. If you can find a zone with a lot of events, you'll get much more of everything than you would in a slow level-appropriate zone.

  14. #94
    OP here, just to clarify, I do NOT want raids in the game. I have never asked for raids, I want more content that is relevant. "Entire game is endgame" is irrelevant, when you actually get to end game (I'm not saying lvl 80) and you have 100% map completion and have done every heart/vista/skill point/dungeon and realize that the only difference is how the gear looks (assuming you have proper stat weights you like) you realize the end game IS cosmetic. Which is OK, as long has you have the models to support it. At a little over 38 skins per character (for heavy) its disappointing.

    Relevant content as I have suggested before more interesting events, more gear choices, larger lvl 80 zones, yes you get down leveled but one you have gear at lvl 80 the down leveling is a joke I can 3 shot mobs where I'm down leveled.

    So as I've said numerous times now I DO NOT WANT WoW 2.0, I stopped playing WoW because I found it to be unrewarding and stale, so please stop even suggesting it. Also can we please get away from Game V Game we actually have a good discussion going I'd hate for it to boil down to GvG.

  15. #95
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephlim View Post
    the only difference is how the gear looks (assuming you have proper stat weights you like) you realize the end game IS cosmetic. Which is OK, as long has you have the models to support it. At a little over 38 skins per character (for heavy) its disappointing.
    This is your most valid point. There is still plenty to do in this game, which heavily relies on PvP, alts, and making friends for replayability. You just want more content and more rewards. Well, this is a B2P game. There isn't a subscription. Yet, they already have plans to keep adding things. I think this is much too early in the game to be complaining about a lack of content.

    Though not having enough skins in an entirely cosmetic max level gear system is very weak.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by mafao View Post
    I was disappointed that they still decided to go with that tier-based crafting system (where one tier makes the previous redundant). At least they could have implemented something like that for the materials (e.g. most armor recipes needing copper, regardless of the tier).
    This is true, and also sad. It is, however, nice that you still gain discovery experience for things out of level, but yeah, I totally understand what you're saying.
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  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Nephlim View Post
    you realize the end game IS cosmetic. Which is OK, as long has you have the models to support it. At a little over 38 skins per character (for heavy) its disappointing.
    No, YOU think the endgame is cosmetic. YOU care about cosmetic, other people don't, other people are there for the journey, pvp, roleplaying, etc. The cosmetic options is only a tiny addition to people like me, 5-6 exotic sets is much more cosmetic options than I need in years in a MMORPG.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by parcus View Post
    No, YOU think the endgame is cosmetic. YOU care about cosmetic, other people don't, other people are there for the journey, pvp, roleplaying, etc. The cosmetic options is only a tiny addition to people like me, 5-6 exotic sets is much more cosmetic options than I need in years in a MMORPG.
    While I agree there are other "options" in end game if you break them all down they all fall short individually, except maybe roleplaying, because you really don't need much if you enjoy it. The journey is great but limited, it goes by really quick, heck I didn't even "race" to 100% completion. I explored, watched EVERY vista, did jumping puzzles and help friends out in areas I had already completed.

    As far a PvP goes, GW2 in its current incarnation lacks very little depth 90% of the time. I know someone else on this board posted it earlier in this topic its 90% zerg 10% strategy, which if your looking for PvP end game with depth this isn't the game for you.

    What do YOU define as the end game?

    Also I don't see a majority of the player base being role players, its just unrealistic.

  19. #99
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephlim View Post
    As far a PvP goes, GW2 in its current incarnation lacks very little depth 90% of the time. I know someone else on this board posted it earlier in this topic its 90% zerg 10% strategy, which if your looking for PvP end game with depth this isn't the game for you.
    To be frank, most games with PvP are like this. Whether it's by design or because of the players depends on the game, but it still boils down to those percentages. Other MMOs and FPS are zerg first, hope you are more accurate/better at pushing buttons, strategy fifth.

  20. #100
    The lowest it seems to go is 50%. If you can find a zone with a lot of events, you'll get much more of everything than you would in a slow level-appropriate zone.
    According to the wiki and my own testing, it goes down to a maximum of 30 levels below your current level. So if you went to Caledon Forest at level 80, you'd get XP as if they were level 50 events. However, the XP required per level goes up pretty steeply as you level, so it's somewhere between 1/6th and 1/5th the rewards of doing a level 80 event.

    Granted, you'll be smashing those mobs but events still take as long as they take. Some zones do have a lot of events that cycle pretty fast, but I still don't think you'll make up the difference.

    I was disappointed that they still decided to go with that tier-based crafting system (where one tier makes the previous redundant). At least they could have implemented something like that for the materials (e.g. most armor recipes needing copper, regardless of the tier).
    What's funny is that cooking does that. Some of the recipes I used to level from 350-400 used mats I got at level 5! Sad that they dumped that system for all the other crafting disciplines.
    Last edited by Bovinity Divinity; 2012-10-05 at 12:36 AM.

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