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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    I come from games where players can mix & match any item via gear transmutation &/or with non-destructive cosmetic systems. Dye-able individually &/or by section. With pre-made dye or player mixed dye. As well as instant hide/show any armor piece discretely from within the character sheet.

    Those are things I would consider "standard" in a modern MMO.

    The limitations in GW2 are unusual to me over the last 5 1/2 years or so of MMOs. Most have really robust vanity/cosmetic options. This is a pretty enjoyable aspect of MMOs for me. So I specifically take note of these things.

    I do not play World of Warcraft.

    Care to name some(more than 1) of the MMO's where that is standard?
    "Bill Nye: So Todd I got an offer for you. You and me. Any time. Any place. Debating science mano- a-mano. I'll bring the facts, and you bring the Vaseline. Because your ass is gonna fucking need it when I'm done whipping."

    Mr Eames: "You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling"

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by jtgizmo View Post
    Care to name some(more than 1) of the MMO's where that is standard?
    Radiant Arcana, Vindictus, Rift, PWI, Continent of the 9th, Raiderz, EQ2, Aion, LOTRO.

  3. #43
    Pit Lord HBpapa's Avatar
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    Mostly agree with you, OP.

    sPvP feels like its ONLY intention was an attempt to be an e-sport as nearly every map pretty much feels the same. Why did they decide to roll out with less PvP variation than just about any other triple-A MMO in recent years? Hell, even SWTOR at least tried to mix things up a bit. WvW could be fun...but 90% of the time its ZvZ and 10% of the time (if you are lucky) its solid coordination and strategy on a large scale. So up to 10% of the time its actually fun.

    PvE feels like I'm doing the same thing over and over again. Why bother leveling if DE's pretty much feel the same. If you level to 10 the rest of the game feels moot because of repitiion. For a game that was suppose to be 'different' in PvE it sure as hell feels like a unimaginative grinder to me. Rift already did DE's and it felt like there was more consequence to failing to push back an invasion and better reward for grouping up to succeed.

    No, I don't feel like I got my $60 worth. If you are going to make a PvP oriented game then have more than WoW arena meets capture the flag or something similar to TSW's FvFvF PvP on a much larger map. If you are going to do a PvE game then how about not having everything feel like you are doing the same five things over and over again from level 10 on up.
    Last edited by HBpapa; 2012-10-03 at 03:49 AM.
    Atheist, anti-theist, pro-gun, pro-Constitution, anti-racism, pro-gay rights, anti-war, anti-corporatism.

  4. #44
    Field Marshal nitewarlord's Avatar
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    Guild wars 2 lacks any fun and challenging end game PVE. PVP is good in this game but i think they focused to much into it and im mostly a PVE'r and once i saw videos on youtube and talked to a couple of 80's i realised nothing will be there for me in end game that i would actually enjoy. But its just my opinion

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Radiant Arcana, Vindictus, Rift, PWI, Continent of the 9th, Raiderz, EQ2, Aion, LOTRO.

    Fair enough, only heard of rift, eq2 and aion with lotro, never heard of the rest. And they all have those as a standard, mix and match from light to heavy?

    whilst I agree that GW2 would greatly benefit in more detail on what you can color (usual gear has like 3 parts only) I still think the dye system is pretty good and transmuting items works well in gw2.
    "Bill Nye: So Todd I got an offer for you. You and me. Any time. Any place. Debating science mano- a-mano. I'll bring the facts, and you bring the Vaseline. Because your ass is gonna fucking need it when I'm done whipping."

    Mr Eames: "You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling"

  6. #46
    Well I don't think it's nearly as bad as Fencers says it is but I would like to see some different armors out there.

    Not sure if you can classify Vindictus and C9 (Raiderz is similar format I believe as well) as they are just lobby games. Kind of a mix of GW1 and Diablo.

  7. #47
    I did a bit of googling, very lazily, but still, just to gauge whats there

    So Raidiant Arcana... well I don't know what your standards are - but it definitely isn't a AAA MMO, unless I am severely mistaken...
    Vindictus - you can fuse items, but I could not find how you would be able to give appearance of one to another, cant fuse different types though, so pretty much like gw2 just slightly inferior it seems.
    Rift - unless I am mistaken, it seem you can only transmute stats, but not looks?

    At this point I stopped checking others (the ones I've not heard of) as Ive never heard of them, so if you think they are 3xA mmos - they don't defy the standard.

    EQ2: I couldn't really find where you could transmute item looks and stats in EQ2 like in GW2, I am curious to find out more about this, so if you got source would be nice for some reading. Also about Dyeing, what can be dyed and how it works.

    Aion: "Remodeling is a service that allows players to replace the appearance of an item by using the style (skin) of another item of the same type. This is also known as reskinning. It allows player to keep the same style while upgrading equipment" So same like GW2.

    LOTRO: Cosmetic items only? no real armor transmuting? unless I am mistaken, again would be good to read about it more in depth if you have. But as far as I can see it is in no way 'superior' or mmo defing standard feature.

    And to end this I am sure you know this that anet originally planned to have ability where you can mix dyes and such but they opted out of it and decided to go with predetermined dye system (most probably because of the gem store).

    I think only really superior dyeing system (though I could not find much details) is Rift and Aion. I am happy to rad more about it to understand, but to claim that those features (more often inferior to GW2) is standard of current +A MMO's is bit far fetched.

    I think your main gripe is lack of outfits and different armors and limited amount of aspects that can be dyed - to what I agree also, there should be more. The gem store really lacks variety.
    "Bill Nye: So Todd I got an offer for you. You and me. Any time. Any place. Debating science mano- a-mano. I'll bring the facts, and you bring the Vaseline. Because your ass is gonna fucking need it when I'm done whipping."

    Mr Eames: "You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling"

  8. #48
    Herald of the Titans Jigain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtgizmo View Post
    So Raidiant Arcana... well I don't know what your standards are - but it definitely isn't a AAA MMO, [...] At this point I stopped checking others (the ones I've not heard of) as Ive never heard of them, so if you think they are 3xA mmos - they don't defy the standard.
    In her defense - not that she needs it, she's a lady with bite and I do respect and appreciate that - neither you nor her specified "triple-A MMOs" anywhere.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-03 at 03:30 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    I come from games where players can mix & match any item via gear transmutation &/or with non-destructive cosmetic systems. Dye-able individually &/or by section. With pre-made dye or player mixed dye. As well as instant hide/show any armor piece discretely from within the character sheet.
    I haven't played most of what you listed, and the ones I did play I didn't play for any longer periods of time, so please humor me... did any of these games feature a re-dying system as extensive (391 hues) and easily accessible (free and instant anywhere outside combat) as GW2?

  9. #49
    I haven't played most of what you listed, and the ones I did play I didn't play for any longer periods of time, so please humor me... did any of these games feature a re-dying system as extensive (391 hues) and easily accessible (free and instant anywhere outside combat) as GW2?
    The dye system is nice, that's true, but it's still just dye. I can color my trench coat black or blue or red, but I still just have a ton of trenchcoats to choose from. Hell, even EverQuest had a dye system, but it didn't make a crappy item look any less crappy in the end.

    As for the transmuting, it's still a clunky, item-destroying system that requires a consumable. Age of Conan - for example - had a nice simple elegant system. You simply had two character sheets...one sheet where you put the items that you wanted to wear for stats, the other sheet where you put the items you wanted to have visible. (One item could do both, if you wanted.) Simple, easy, mix-and-match, no consuambles or having to destroy two items to make one.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by jtgizmo View Post
    Fair enough, only heard of rift, eq2 and aion with lotro, never heard of the rest. And they all have those as a standard, mix and match from light to heavy?
    Not all. That's why I said "&/or" as some have more freedom in customization to a greater or lesser degree than each other.

    For example, Rift uses non destructive, multiple gear sets, instantly swappable, useable in combat. While Vindictus allows mix and match vanity gearing for combat and costuming, it doesn't have the clothes closet of Rift or hot swap outfit switching.

    Where a game like Radiant Arcana has like no restrictions at all. Wanna be a heavy armor tank class with transmuted light armor wielding a butterfly wand? You can do that!

    Best game, imo.

    whilst I agree that GW2 would greatly benefit in more detail on what you can color (usual gear has like 3 parts only) I still think the dye system is pretty good and transmuting items works well in gw2.
    You're right, it does. I just want mmmooorrreee. I'm greedy.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2012-10-03 at 02:43 PM.

  11. #51
    yeah i wouldnt mind some more, a lot more
    "Bill Nye: So Todd I got an offer for you. You and me. Any time. Any place. Debating science mano- a-mano. I'll bring the facts, and you bring the Vaseline. Because your ass is gonna fucking need it when I'm done whipping."

    Mr Eames: "You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling"

  12. #52
    Where a game like Radiant Arcana has like no restrictions at all. Wanna be a heavy armor tank class with transmuted light armor wielding a butterfly wand? You can do that!
    Yeah, I never really got why developers are so hung up on the idea of, "Heavy armor has to look like heavy armor, RAWR"

  13. #53
    Herald of the Titans Jigain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    The dye system is nice, that's true, but it's still just dye. I can color my trench coat black or blue or red, but I still just have a ton of trenchcoats to choose from. Hell, even EverQuest had a dye system, but it didn't make a crappy item look any less crappy in the end.
    That's true, and I certainly didn't mean it to sound like "if they dye system is less impressive than in GW2 the game is substandard" - the reason I asked was rather because I enjoy the mix-and-match with dyes to make sets that, while not unique, does set me apart visually from Everyday Joe wearing the same type or even pieces of armor, and if another MMO offers that to the same or greater degree, I'd want to have a gander at that.

    Also, while I'll grant that armor variation could use a bit of sprucing up, I'll also say that GW2 is one of the few, if not the only, MMORPG I've played where gear actually looks good within the first ten levels of playing. Not "AH MY GOD this greatsword is the bestest ever and shines in the dark and was arcanely forged by the grand archmage of the universe!", but certainly "this rifle with intricate silver details is amazing and I wouldn't be ashamed to have a weapon looking like it at level 80". Yes, I have saved that rifle on my warrior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Yeah, I never really got why developers are so hung up on the idea of, "Heavy armor has to look like heavy armor, RAWR"
    Immersion, really. More people complain about the game breaking their immersion, than people complain about the game not breaking their immersion, thus it's both easier and makes more sense to appease the former crowd.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Yeah, I never really got why developers are so hung up on the idea of, "Heavy armor has to look like heavy armor, RAWR"
    Consistency. Identification.

    It's fine when things are actually so. Often times they are not. So like, "Don't break my immersion, bro!" is pretty whatever when a hobbit wearing sunglasses & a white jumpsuit is standing 2 feet away from Sir Algon of the Glades & Order of the Spiked Crotch*.

    IMMERSION.



    *yes, i made this up because it amused me.

  15. #55
    Well sure, sunglasses and a jumpsuit would be strange, but there's nothing immersion-breaking about a heavy armor wearing warrior having his armor look like a leather set or something.

  16. #56
    Mechagnome Snakehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nitewarlord View Post
    Guild wars 2 lacks any fun and challenging end game PVE. PVP is good in this game but i think they focused to much into it and im mostly a PVE'r and once i saw videos on youtube and talked to a couple of 80's i realised nothing will be there for me in end game that i would actually enjoy. But its just my opinion
    So you imply that you've never played gw2 and are basing your "end game" experience on what others have said. Maybe you should find out for yourself and not believe every disgruntled wow fan looking for a new home that hated on gw2 for being innovative.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Well sure, sunglasses and a jumpsuit would be strange, but there's nothing immersion-breaking about a heavy armor wearing warrior having his armor look like a leather set or something.
    Preaching to the choir.

    For years I tanked raids while wearing a wedding dress or corset/thigh high boots/bunny ears. My shield was a bouquet of blue flowers.

  18. #58
    Bloodsail Admiral Maythael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Preaching to the choir.

    For years I tanked raids while wearing a wedding dress or corset/thigh high boots/bunny ears. My shield was a bouquet of blue flowers.
    Oh god. I've always wanted to do that.

    I mean, why not? I doubt a dragons foot will feel less heavy in tougher gear. >.>

  19. #59
    Moderator Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtgizmo View Post
    I did a bit of googling, very lazily, but still, just to gauge whats there

    So Raidiant Arcana... well I don't know what your standards are - but it definitely isn't a AAA MMO, unless I am severely mistaken...
    Vindictus - you can fuse items, but I could not find how you would be able to give appearance of one to another, cant fuse different types though, so pretty much like gw2 just slightly inferior it seems.
    Rift - unless I am mistaken, it seem you can only transmute stats, but not looks?

    At this point I stopped checking others (the ones I've not heard of) as Ive never heard of them, so if you think they are 3xA mmos - they don't defy the standard.

    EQ2: I couldn't really find where you could transmute item looks and stats in EQ2 like in GW2, I am curious to find out more about this, so if you got source would be nice for some reading. Also about Dyeing, what can be dyed and how it works.

    Aion: "Remodeling is a service that allows players to replace the appearance of an item by using the style (skin) of another item of the same type. This is also known as reskinning. It allows player to keep the same style while upgrading equipment" So same like GW2.

    LOTRO: Cosmetic items only? no real armor transmuting? unless I am mistaken, again would be good to read about it more in depth if you have. But as far as I can see it is in no way 'superior' or mmo defing standard feature.

    And to end this I am sure you know this that anet originally planned to have ability where you can mix dyes and such but they opted out of it and decided to go with predetermined dye system (most probably because of the gem store).

    I think only really superior dyeing system (though I could not find much details) is Rift and Aion. I am happy to rad more about it to understand, but to claim that those features (more often inferior to GW2) is standard of current +A MMO's is bit far fetched.

    I think your main gripe is lack of outfits and different armors and limited amount of aspects that can be dyed - to what I agree also, there should be more. The gem store really lacks variety.
    It doesn't matter if it's AAA, it's still an MMO.
    EQ2 changes model via an appearance slot. Have the item? Put it into the appearance slot. Quick change, no cost, no anything. Dyes come in one type, RBG if I remember correctly, pick whatever color, minimal and one time cost I believe. Believe it's two part, can't remember exactly.
    If you don't need to attune the item (example of an common / uncommon item), then you can transfer that among all characters. Believe it doesn't have an item type requirement other than weapon, though I may be wrong on that. I just remember my bard (chain) wearing some cloth and leather at points. Don't think I wore a plate though.

    To stat transfer is exactly the same as taking one item's look and slap it onto another's appearance.
    Also reskin is not remodel. To replace an appearance is to take a completely different model set from a gear and use that as the appearance. A reskin is to take the same model and apply a different texture.

    Plus, why keep saying inferior when it is exactly the same thing.

    EQ2
    http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Appearance
    If you don't know by the description. Attune = soul binding it.
    LOTRO
    http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Outfitting
    It's the same as any appearance slots in other games. It is a much better method as it wastes nothing, costs nothing.
    It is the exact same result and costs nothing other than some clicking, overrides any appearance that you have yet keeps the same stats. Gives you customizations that are easy to flip around and make you look like a clown if you wish or make you look like whatever just as long as you have the item in the inventory. No gold cost, no real money cost, no npc, etc.

    SWTOR's system is just taking an already item that you can shell out it's mods and such and stick it into another 'orange' item (another item with sockets), and it'd receive the same stats and will retain the appearance of the orange item. However, costs credits.

    GW2's appearance change is no different than WoW's with the exception of adding a dye and pretty much the same as Tera's, except Tera also allows you a choice of RBG dyes. It is just taking another item, then destroying (not in WoW for this case) and transferring that appearance to another piece of gear.

    Type google - Rift Dye. Receive nice article
    http://riftwardrobe.wikia.com/wiki/Dyes

    Saying you can't find anything is a bit of a cop out.
    Last edited by Remilia; 2012-10-03 at 05:44 PM.

  20. #60
    Here's the problem I have with the gear Transmutation in GW2 and comparing it to other MMOs. Cosmetic appearance in GW2 IS the end game. So I expect it to be a step above other games. RIFT, which has a just as good system, isn't even focused on cosmetic appearance it concentrates on raiding. If GW2 wasn't sold as a cosmetic centered game I'd bee cool with it, but only have 50 different Heavy chest pieces (including the 15 that are race specific so realistically 38 for any one hero) from lvl 1 - 80 is RIDICULOUS. I'm sorry but Anet really dropped the ball on this one, they need to at least DOUBLE whats in game now.

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