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  1. #61
    I agree 100% with this review. Good read

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rukh View Post
    By definition you can't be doing end game the whole way.

    What people mean is what you do at max level doesn't drastically change from what you do while leveling. That's all fine and well, but in most games you can do what you did leveling when you are at max level. Its just then they have other things like raids at the end also.
    The key difference is that most other MMOs change the way the game is played by design once you reach max level, whereas GW2 by design does not. Sure you can argue that you could play, say, WoW at max level by only doing every quest you didn't do while leveling up, but that's not how the game was designed. It was designed to be a questing experience up to max level, then instanced co-operative gameplay, leading into instanced co-operative gameplay on a larger scale than is reasonable while doing the pre-max level gameplay. I'm not saying this is a bad way of doing it, I'm simply saying that's how it's designed. GW2 on the other hand was designed to let you do everything there's to do at max level while you're leveling. In other words, if by some reasoning ArenaNet were to implement, say, 25-man instanced PvE content in GW2... there'd be plenty of occasions where you could do it long before you reached max level, following their game design.

    So you can't really say "but you could do anything in X game as well", because the way the games were designed are vastly different.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post
    I think you missed the part where the whole game is end game
    That's just a marketing line Arena.net made up. It's not even logical.

    However, the spirit of what you are saying; that GW2 isn't some other game at l80 apart from what it was at l9 or l52 is accurate to the franchise.

    edit: Or what Jigain basically said above this post. Essentially, not a bimodal endgame. Take a drink.

  4. #64
    Scarab Lord Karizee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephlim View Post
    I think you missed the part where I have 100% map completion . Unless you think grinding random mobs is end game...
    Why would you do that when there is so much else to do?

    Unless you're talking about the game not having raids. The running of one instance over and over for months on end.
    The reality is that is an old concept, it's tired, it's boring and not very many people are looking for that from a MMO.
    Just look at WoW for instance. For their last tier with 10 million subscribers, only ~670,000 were raiders. GW2 is not going for that tiny sliver of a market.

    But that doesn't mean there isn't a ton of stuff to do once you reach max level
    Valar morghulis

  5. #65
    How do you know there were only 670k raiders in World of Warcraft?

    Also, technically. GW2's design style is older than instance based raiding. Most MMOs were more like GW2 back in the day than like WOW/TOR/whatever.

  6. #66
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post
    You are taking into consideration only those who actually succeded.
    How many tried and failed? The wannabe raiders?
    Many, many more. The backbone of WoW.
    The same guys that say "GW2 has no endgame", but never went past 2nd boss in FL.
    Imho, the carrot & stick system still works. It's easy and it works.

  8. #68
    Erm. There are literally thousands of guilds for that tier listed. I stopped looking after 4 thousand or so guilds that were just 8/8. I think your "evidence" is a bit flimsy.

    Edit: I kept looking. At over +6k deep in the guild listings for 8/8(H) alone.

    Edit: Unless I am reading this incorrectly. Does not WOW have like multi-mode raids of the same tier? I don't play WoW. Many things about WoW seem strange/nonsensical to me. But if wiki is correct that seems like a good deal more than 670k players. Which is massive enough to dwarf like the entire sub base of other MMOs. Like just Blizz's raid population if so.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2012-10-04 at 02:34 PM.

  9. #69
    Scarab Lord Karizee's Avatar
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    For the first boss, 54,842 10m guilds + 4,832 25m guilds.
    No need to count, multiplication is your friend.
    Valar morghulis

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post
    For the first boss, 54,842 10m guilds + 4,832 25m guilds.
    No need to count, multiplication is your friend.
    And that includes these multi mode raids? Incomplete progress and so on?

    I honestly am not sure how their multi mode raids work. I assume it is like TOR.

  11. #71
    Scarab Lord Karizee's Avatar
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    Not sure what you mean by multi-mode raids.
    The first boss on normal mode went down if you sneezed. Obviously if people were working on that for 9+ months and didn't get it, they weren't a raider.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-04 at 07:47 AM ----------

    For just as many people that are sitting on a bench, you have people that are running alts in another guild.

    Really, raiding isn't the end all be all to MMOs. GW2 is fine without raids
    Valar morghulis

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post
    Not sure what you mean by multi-mode raids.
    Again, I may be wrong here but as I understand it there is; Normal, Hard and LFR modes of 10 and 25 man to a single raid.

    So like

    Normal 10
    Normal 25
    Hard 10
    Hard 25
    LFR 10
    LFR 25

    6 modes as I have come to understand it.

    Wanna stress when I played WOW many of these things didn't even exist. No doubt a lot changed. I may not understand it all correctly.


    Really, raiding isn't the end all be all to MMOs. GW2 is fine without raids
    Well, I agree. But seems like it's pretty big/popular thing within World of Warcraft. If that site is anything to go by [dubious as is], literal thousands of guilds completed at least the hard mode to 8/8.

    How many more thousands did other modes or partial progression?

    Or desperate players who raided but may not have had unified or consistent guild participation?

    Like 10 million people is a lot. And even if only say 1% of their population raided to even a casual degree- it'd still dwarf the total subscribers of many MMOs. It's even more than some F2P MMOs unique logins.

  13. #73
    Not every game has to have raids, just let it go.

  14. #74
    Scarab Lord Karizee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Again, I may be wrong here but as I understand it there is; Normal, Hard and LFR modes of 10 and 25 man to a single raid.

    So like

    Normal 10
    Normal 25
    Hard 10
    Hard 25
    LFR 10
    LFR 25

    6 modes as I have come to understand it.

    Wanna stress when I played WOW many of these things didn't even exist. No doubt a lot changed. I may not understand it all correctly.



    Well, I agree. But seems like it's pretty big/popular thing within World of Warcraft. If that site is anything to go by [dubious as is], literal thousands of guilds completed at least the hard mode to 8/8.

    How many more thousands did other modes or partial progression?

    Or desperate players who raided but may not have had unified or consistent guild participation?

    Like 10 million people is a lot. And even if only say 1% of their population raided to even a casual degree- it'd still dwarf the total subscribers of many MMOs. It's even more than some F2P MMOs unique logins.
    I was counting both 10 & 25 man. You have to complete the first boss on Normal mode to do any Heroic versions so that includes all the raiders except for anyone that's not a raider that participates in LFR. LFR people are perfectly happy with the mass event World Boss dragon events in GW2 - it's perfect really.
    Valar morghulis

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Sure, the game is fine without "raids" but it still could use some kind of content other than just grinding outdoor events or instances that are largely faceroll exercizes. The entire, "The whole game is endgame" thing is just weak. Really, really weak. It is absolutely nothing special at all and amounts to nothing more than marketing nonsense.

    Use WoW as an example. (Just because it's convenient, don't start with the "This isn't WoW! " stuff, guys.) Don't want to raid? Don't want to be on the "gear treadmill"? Then don't. No one is forcing you. Go out and complete all the zones, level alts, collect pets, mounts, or achievements. Farm up gold. Play the auction house. There's a TON to do if you're going to judge content by the GW2 model where exploring, completing zones, and doing events are treated as "endgame". (Of course that's mostly because WoW is so old, to be fair.)
    Well, the point that you seem to be missing is that WoW and many other games do not have level downscaling mechanics. If you are level 90, it doesn't make much sense to go back to lower-level content save for that zone completion achievement. No problem with this in GW2 - and you even get level-appropriate reward. For casual players GW2 is much more attractive in this regard.

    As far as raiding goes... well, its an interesting thing, really, because raids (and dungeons) are in fact, not a MMORPG content. Rather, these are instanced (as opposed to persistent) PVE scenarios. Its very interesting to see that one of the most popular MMO mechanics actually goes a step back from MMO essence. Strictly spoken, GW2 is more of an MMO, as it offers you persistent boss fights. Of course, this is a moot point as the instanced scenarios offer more opportunities for fine-tuning and interested design. But then again, not that many people raid. When I was playing WoW, I couldn't really get into it because grinding gear bored me to death. I find GW2 dungeons much more interesting than any dungeon I did in WoW, simply because there is so much more opportunity of team-play in GW2.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by mafao View Post
    Well, the point that you seem to be missing is that WoW and many other games do not have level downscaling mechanics. If you are level 90, it doesn't make much sense to go back to lower-level content save for that zone completion achievement. No problem with this in GW2 - and you even get level-appropriate reward. For casual players GW2 is much more attractive in this regard.
    One thing I find a bit annoying about the whole downscale argument is, it's not the only one in the genre. EQ2 does an excellent job at it. Every 'named' mob in dungeons or outside mobs or whatever gives you AA exp, alternate advancement, think of it as a more extensive talent tree.
    Your downscale works by 2 methods. Mentoring, which you level downwards to a selected party member's level, or chronomancy, which levels you down in decrements of 5, and you pick whatever you want. In order to get the AA exp from the named mob (and for it to even count in your 'kill count'), you have to down level to the proper level. Now this is all manual and you get the same award and get a mark for being completionist (if that was your goal). Now this also isn't the only method to get AA, which makes it optional and for those more casual players you can do this for giggles or for completing or just to explore the content.

    Yet for some reason everyone views EQ2 as a very hardcore game when there's both raiding, then there's things like chronomancy, personal housing to mess with, guild housing, dungeon creations and many others to mess with for the casuals and hardcores.
    It does amount to exactly what Bovinity said, for the whole "TON"s to do yet every time people treat it differently for some magical reason.
    Note, I was in no means a hardcore raider in EQ2. Most of the time I did things in EQ2 was chronomancy / mess with old raids, dungeons, finding named mob, outside raid bosses, etc. Especially housing, <3

    Also, the whole griefing argument is moot. Anyone can just aggro a gigantic train and go right next to you and run off and you'd suddenly have a lot of mobs on you from someone.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post
    I was counting both 10 & 25 man. You have to complete the first boss on Normal mode to do any Heroic versions so that includes all the raiders except for anyone that's not a raider that participates in LFR. LFR people are perfectly happy with the mass event World Boss dragon events in GW2 - it's perfect really.
    I see. A strange kind of reverse elitism going on here.

    So like, you are saying only the folks 8/8 Hard Mode are raiders or participants on that specific mode of gameplay? Are you saying the LFR & normal mode people don't count to the total raid participants?

  18. #78
    Fluffy Kitten Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    I see. A strange kind of reverse elitism going on here.

    So like, you are saying only the folks 8/8 Hard Mode are raiders or participants on that specific mode of gameplay? Are you saying the LFR & normal mode people don't count to the total raid participants?
    Think he means that counting via 1st boss kill.
    Which should be counted from all Tiers by the way, not just one. Remember a lot of people quit.

  19. #79
    Scarab Lord Karizee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    Think he means that counting via 1st boss kill.
    Which should be counted from all Tiers by the way, not just one. Remember a lot of people quit.
    It's pretty much the same across all tiers by a percentage or 2.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-04 at 12:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Well, we've had this discussion before on the board. GW2's downscaling is actually pretty bad in it's implementation at this time, as the game will also downscale the XP/Karma/money rewards for events, hearts, kills, etc. So while you CAN take your level 80 back to Caledon Forest and get some XP, it'll be about 10% of the XP you'd get from an event in Orr.
    Not true!

    This morning I did the Swamp Boss in Caledon Forest and got a lvl 80 rare Carrion Verdant Dagger of Air.

    I also did the 4 Champion event there with a few other people, got a mix of low & high level loot - nice for mats
    Valar morghulis

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Well, we've had this discussion before on the board. GW2's downscaling is actually pretty bad in it's implementation at this time, as the game will also downscale the XP/Karma/money rewards for events, hearts, kills, etc. So while you CAN take your level 80 back to Caledon Forest and get some XP, it'll be about 10% of the XP you'd get from an event in Orr.
    Oh? I wasn't aware of that. Indeed, it sounds a bit broken. I also agree with you on the jute problem.

    Actually, when I heard about GW2 for the first time I was expecting it to have a new kind of crafting system, where every item you craft is relevant independently of the level. Something like how EVE Online works. I was disappointed that they still decided to go with that tier-based crafting system (where one tier makes the previous redundant). At least they could have implemented something like that for the materials (e.g. most armor recipes needing copper, regardless of the tier).

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