Calculating 2h vs DW for WW Monk.

**Regen** · 2012-10-02, 01:55 PM

I know all the "2 weapon enchants is better" and "slightly more stats from one over the other" arguments but I was wondering if anyone could explain how to calculate which one is actually better. I can't find anything on it, anywhere.

All I have is in Mihir's guide it says that in DW the OH gets a 50% weapon dps penalty. Does that mean, assuming we get absolutely identical stats, we're looking at 2H dps vs (MH + 50%OH) dps? I'm trying to understand to make this all easier.

Thanks,
Regen.

**Nemesis003** · 2012-10-02, 02:45 PM

honestly from my in game exepraince there is little to no difference in heroic gear using DW vs a 2h. If one becomes better then the other blizz will prolly fix it seeing out they stated specifically they wanted it to be a flavor option not something that was better then one or the other

**Regen** · 2012-10-02, 03:33 PM

I'm trying to compare different items, though. Like right now my dilemma is between my two 1H heirloom vs a blue polearm I looted. The polearm gives me more stats but less attack power(slightly) and I'm trying to figure out how to compare the damage each gives. With the polearm the damage on the tooltip for blackout kick doubles but I don't see how that's accurate?

I get that in BiS it's less than a 1% difference or whatever between the two, but I'd like to understand why one is better than the other.

**Nemesis003** · 2012-10-03, 05:27 AM

one is not better then the other according to in game testing. Simcraft showed DW better but simcraft is no more accurate then throwing darts at a list to see whats better.

when it comes to picking go with better stats for you.

**Regen** · 2012-10-03, 05:59 AM

And even still, that does not answer my question. I'm trying to determine just how to figure which option's weapon dps is better.

Putting stats and sim craft and iLvl and BiS lists and whatever aside, how do you compare weapon dps of a 2hander to 2 one handers? That's what I'm looking for. Not a predetermined answer that's been posted 8,000 times in these forums.

**Nemesis003** · 2012-10-03, 01:56 PM

Stop using simcraft. It is 100% wrong for monks.

You are not going to get the answer you want. If the ilvl of both 1h weapons is higher use them if the ilvl to the 2h is higher that is better.

**Regen** · 2012-10-03, 02:34 PM

I literally said putting simcraft and iLvl aside...

Did you not read more than 1 word of either of my posts?

**Nemesis003** · 2012-10-03, 02:37 PM

your asking for something you will never get an answer for... if the 1hs are the same ilvl as the 2h your damage will be the same. I don't get what you want other then an answer os to if DW or 2H is better and the answer to that is nerither

**Regen** · 2012-10-03, 02:43 PM

Every weapon in the game has damage on it. And it shows it's "dps" on it and every monk attack takes weapon damage per second into its calculation...I'd like to know how to determine if weapon A&B's dps value is greater than weapon C's. Absolutely completely putting iLvl (doesn't even work with heirlooms anyways) and secondary stats aside. There's an answer for that.

**Byronyk** · 2012-10-03, 02:53 PM

Regen is correct. There is a calculation to determine damage values based on input variables. My problem is I'm atrocious with math and there are hardly any advanced resources on the internet for windwalker monks to help you. I would suggest, perhaps, going to EJ and looking at their damage calculations and building your own model around theirs.

**Regen** · 2012-10-03, 06:30 PM

I tried that, I believe. And there was no mention of weapon damage calculations I don't think.

**Schizoide** · 2012-10-03, 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by Nemesis003

Stop using simcraft. It is 100% wrong for monks.

You have no clue what you're talking about. Stop speaking like you do.

2H and DW scale identically with active skills due to the way monk abilities were implemented based upon weapon DPS. However, DW scales better with attack power on autoattacks and tiger strikes. You also get two enchants. To somewhat balance that out, 2H has slightly better stats. Everything being equal, DW will win.

**Nemesis003** · 2012-10-03, 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by Schizoide

You have no clue what you're talking about. Stop speaking like you do.

2H and DW scale identically with active skills due to the way monk abilities were implemented based upon weapon DPS. However, DW scales better with attack power on autoattacks and tiger strikes. You also get two enchants. To somewhat balance that out, 2H has slightly better stats. Everything being equal, DW will win.

yet you have 0 proof because all in game tested has said they are EQUAL.

you do know simcraft is not REAL GAME testing right? hell even the people who did the monk simcraft have said they cannot get it right. Its astounding how people put so much faith in something that has been proven to be wrong far more times then it has been right.. even a coin flip is more accurate.

**Schizoide** · 2012-10-03, 08:44 PM

You keep flapping your lips, but nothing of value comes out.

If you can point to a spot where simcraft models WW incorrectly, please open a ticket and the devs will fix it. The WW monk model is extremely mature at this point.

**sethg** · 2012-10-03, 08:49 PM

Regen, 1h will be superior for a few reasons but mainly because of procs. With 2x weapons you have 2x chances to proc per 2.6 sec oppossed to 1 chance to proc every 2-2.4 sec. In the end, DW typically edges out 2h because of it. Now there is a thresh hold in which 2h can be better but the base speed of a 2h weapon would have to be be sub 3.2 speed whilst maintaining high top end damage. This was the case with the pvp 2h on beta but was fixed once blizzard realized it. Please note, in current gear you will not see much of a difference however, the gap will continue to grow as the tier progresses on.

**Schizoide** · 2012-10-03, 08:59 PM

It's not about procs for WW. 2H does get less tiger strikes procs, but they hit harder. It will also get less weapon enchant procs over time, but like I said earlier, the extra stats with a 2H versus DW largely compensates for that. The DW miss penalty does not apply to Tiger Strikes as it can proc off a miss as per GC.

DW beats 2H due to superior attackpower scaling on autoattacks. Tiger Strikes are just more autoattacks that don't get the 19% DW miss penalty.

- Using a 2H weapon, 1000 attackpower adds 71.4DPS to your autoattacks, flat-out. This number is then multiplied by Tiger Strikes.
- Dual-wielding, 1000AP adds 71.4DPS to your mainhand and 35.7DPS to your offhand for a total of 107.1 DPS, which is also multiplied by Tiger Strikes.

This gap is maintained as you add attackpower. There's no way to surmount it. As your gear improves, DW pulls further and further ahead in terms of absolute performance, although the proportional gap remains the same.

The proper fix for this is to change Way of the Monk to buff 2H (or nerf DW, if it's too high).

This was widely reported in beta, but was not fixed for live.

**Nemesis003** · 2012-10-04, 01:45 AM

Originally Posted by Schizoide

It's not about procs for WW. 2H does get less tiger strikes procs, but they hit harder. It will also get less weapon enchant procs over time, but like I said earlier, the extra stats with a 2H versus DW largely compensates for that. The DW miss penalty does not apply to Tiger Strikes as it can proc off a miss as per GC.

DW beats 2H due to superior attackpower scaling on autoattacks. Tiger Strikes are just more autoattacks that don't get the 19% DW miss penalty.

- Using a 2H weapon, 1000 attackpower adds 71.4DPS to your autoattacks, flat-out. This number is then multiplied by Tiger Strikes.
- Dual-wielding, 1000AP adds 71.4DPS to your mainhand and 35.7DPS to your offhand for a total of 107.1 DPS, which is also multiplied by Tiger Strikes.

This gap is maintained as you add attackpower. There's no way to surmount it. As your gear improves, DW pulls further and further ahead in terms of absolute performance, although the proportional gap remains the same.

The proper fix for this is to change Way of the Monk to buff 2H (or nerf DW, if it's too high).

This was widely reported in beta, but was not fixed for live.

your numbers are wrong... you have more DPS from the 2h... while the DW WHEN added together is a higher DPS but your auto attacks miss, while tigers strikes can proc from a miss when you miss you lose the auto attack damage. That is what you fail at understand and because you think a 2h DPS = just the main hand DPS of a duel weilder.

Right now in heroic gear using a 2h my "autoattack" DPS is 8,856 - while DW its 7.239/3,619 with a 18.913% chance to miss. the auto attack over time is basically the SAME.

you are one of the people who puts 100% faith in simcraft. The program while good for learning rotations is horribly bad for seeing real game output. Even the people who made the monk profile said IT IS WRONG they cannot get tiger strikes working properly with it, and that will change things quite a bit.

**Regen** · 2012-10-04, 02:46 PM

Well, SimCraft can and does do calculations and estimations over a lengthy time that we can NOT do due to human error.

**Nemesis003** · 2012-10-04, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by Regen

Well, SimCraft can and does do calculations and estimations over a lengthy time that we can NOT do due to human error.

it doesn't matter how many times it does them if they are all incorrect. if its not working right for the first iteration then the millionth one is still gonna be wrong.

**sethg** · 2012-10-04, 03:16 PM

Sim craft also says troll is the best race for monk /facepalm. The itemization is also completely ridiculous.

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