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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Fir_ost View Post
    Glyph of Mutilate
    Old - used to reduce Mutilate energy cost by 5.
    New - No longer available
    Glyph of Rupture
    Old - used to increase Rupture duration by 4sec.
    New - No longer available
    Glyph of Slice n Dice
    Old - used to uncrease SnD duration by 3 sec.
    New - No longer available
    These glyphs are now baked into abilities.

  2. #22
    Stood in the Fire
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    It is unfortunate, but it was expected by a great percentage of the Rogue community that Blizzard would mess up and we would suffer until the first big patch. I just hope that we are decent come that patch.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Fir_ost View Post
    Abilities...
    Your list is awful and stupid. It's just that simple. Here's why:

    Kick was nerfed in the exact fashion as every other melee interrupt. At the same time, casters became more reliant on casting. This was a game decision, not a rogue nerf. HAT was changed so we wouldn't be balanced around heal crits at the start. Feint was changed, and the lack of threat reduction wasn't even the nerf, it was the addition of the energy cost to glyphed feint- however it can be held at full uptime, and can be talented to reduce all damage by 35%- it's a different move now, not simply a nerf. Shadowstep lost its damage component because it was separated from sub, cheat death was nerfed far before this patch, it hasn't been 90% in a long time, shiv is a totally new move now and is honestly a net buff now that it applies a special debuff and costs less energy, cold blood was a pretty archaic ability, evasion was NOT nerfed, it was actually BUFFED- evasion used to be 50% chance to dodge melee and 25% chance for ranged to miss, now it is 50% chance to dodge melee AND ranged, don't even pretend this is a nerf because it went from mediocre to amazing versus hunters, the 20% healing was taken away from almost everyone and those still with it have to glyph it, master poisoner as a raid buff went from 8 to 5 for all specs who bring it, throw fires much faster than the previous autoattack based one and shuriken toss is available to upgrade it, and leeching or paralytic are both fully available to pvp rogues who have the 4pc honor or better, which procs cripple whenever any nonlethal applies to the target. Losing points like 6% hit are just fine- these talents we were balanced around in pve, and we are now balanced around their absence- and please don't forget that poisons being on the melee table is an absolutely huge damage buff that outdoes any of these talent based nerfs. Improved Sinister Strike and Aggression have been baked into moves.

    Surprise attacks is seriously on your list? We haven't had this talent since Lich King. Maybe list weapon normalization too lololol

    You also list weapon expertise. Why not mace stun effect, and fist spec?

    Then you list prime glyphs, all of which were baked in or deleted for all classes. Guess which prime glyph you forgot, the only one that was removed in a way that wasn't compensated? The mostly unused revealing strike glyph, which provided extra benefit under some situations. But most classes didn't have this kind of option, so all prime glyphs went away.

    Actual rogue nerfs you pointed out:
    -2% parry
    -losing the 50% reduction to poisons
    -not having a glyph for 20% extra healing like cats do
    -crippling going from 70 to 50, an actual nerf
    -deadly throw
    -throw and poisons
    -prep on tier with shs

  4. #24
    Banned ViridianWRA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Your list is awful and stupid. It's just that simple. Here's why:

    Kick was nerfed in the exact fashion as every other melee interrupt. At the same time, casters became more reliant on casting. This was a game decision, not a rogue nerf. HAT was changed so we wouldn't be balanced around heal crits at the start. Feint was changed, and the lack of threat reduction wasn't even the nerf, it was the addition of the energy cost to glyphed feint- however it can be held at full uptime, and can be talented to reduce all damage by 35%- it's a different move now, not simply a nerf. Shadowstep lost its damage component because it was separated from sub, cheat death was nerfed far before this patch, it hasn't been 90% in a long time, shiv is a totally new move now and is honestly a net buff now that it applies a special debuff and costs less energy, cold blood was a pretty archaic ability, evasion was NOT nerfed, it was actually BUFFED- evasion used to be 50% chance to dodge melee and 25% chance for ranged to miss, now it is 50% chance to dodge melee AND ranged, don't even pretend this is a nerf because it went from mediocre to amazing versus hunters, the 20% healing was taken away from almost everyone and those still with it have to glyph it, master poisoner as a raid buff went from 8 to 5 for all specs who bring it, throw fires much faster than the previous autoattack based one and shuriken toss is available to upgrade it, and leeching or paralytic are both fully available to pvp rogues who have the 4pc honor or better, which procs cripple whenever any nonlethal applies to the target. Losing points like 6% hit are just fine- these talents we were balanced around in pve, and we are now balanced around their absence- and please don't forget that poisons being on the melee table is an absolutely huge damage buff that outdoes any of these talent based nerfs. Improved Sinister Strike and Aggression have been baked into moves.

    Surprise attacks is seriously on your list? We haven't had this talent since Lich King. Maybe list weapon normalization too lololol

    You also list weapon expertise. Why not mace stun effect, and fist spec?

    Then you list prime glyphs, all of which were baked in or deleted for all classes. Guess which prime glyph you forgot, the only one that was removed in a way that wasn't compensated? The mostly unused revealing strike glyph, which provided extra benefit under some situations. But most classes didn't have this kind of option, so all prime glyphs went away.

    Actual rogue nerfs you pointed out:
    -2% parry
    -losing the 50% reduction to poisons
    -not having a glyph for 20% extra healing like cats do
    -crippling going from 70 to 50, an actual nerf
    -deadly throw
    -throw and poisons
    -prep on tier with shs
    Something he failed to mention about Kick is that it costs A SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNT of our major resource (Energy).

    Pummel (Warrior Interrupt) costs no Rage, 15 second Cooldown.

    Mind Freeze (unglyphed) costs no Runic Power and no Runes, 15 second cooldown. Glyphed, 20 runic power and 13 second cooldown.

    Rebuke and Wind Shear (Paladin and Shaman respectively) cost negligible amounts of mana, a resource that, for all intents and purposes, will never prevent an Enhancement Shaman or a Retribution / Protection Paladin from casting spells.

    Spear Hand Strike, the Monk interrupt costs 30 energy but is also a global silence when used from the front.

    Skull Bash (Feral/Guardian Druids) costs no Energy or Rage.


    Rogues and Monks are the only Melee class with an interrupt that costs a considerable amount of their major resource. The Monks, however, get a Silence effect on top of it. I feel like that should be a glyph effect.

  5. #25
    Bumped this thread on the official forums as well.

    Something needs to be done.

  6. #26
    The Patient Linneth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Validity View Post
    Something he failed to mention about Kick is that it costs A SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNT of our major resource (Energy).

    Pummel (Warrior Interrupt) costs no Rage, 15 second Cooldown.

    Mind Freeze (unglyphed) costs no Runic Power and no Runes, 15 second cooldown. Glyphed, 20 runic power and 13 second cooldown.

    Rebuke and Wind Shear (Paladin and Shaman respectively) cost negligible amounts of mana, a resource that, for all intents and purposes, will never prevent an Enhancement Shaman or a Retribution / Protection Paladin from casting spells.

    Spear Hand Strike, the Monk interrupt costs 30 energy but is also a global silence when used from the front.

    Skull Bash (Feral/Guardian Druids) costs no Energy or Rage.


    Rogues and Monks are the only Melee class with an interrupt that costs a considerable amount of their major resource. The Monks, however, get a Silence effect on top of it. I feel like that should be a glyph effect.
    To my knowledge, Skull Bash still has an Energy Cost when in Cat Form (unless my feral friend lied to me). It seems that Blizzard removed Rage and Runic power costs while keeping energy costs. It seems another case of Blizzard logic like Synapse Springs giving only Intellect at the start of Cataclysm.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Validity View Post
    Something he failed to mention about Kick is that it costs A SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNT of our major resource (Energy).

    Pummel (Warrior Interrupt) costs no Rage, 15 second Cooldown.

    Mind Freeze (unglyphed) costs no Runic Power and no Runes, 15 second cooldown. Glyphed, 20 runic power and 13 second cooldown.

    Rebuke and Wind Shear (Paladin and Shaman respectively) cost negligible amounts of mana, a resource that, for all intents and purposes, will never prevent an Enhancement Shaman or a Retribution / Protection Paladin from casting spells.

    Spear Hand Strike, the Monk interrupt costs 30 energy but is also a global silence when used from the front.

    Skull Bash (Feral/Guardian Druids) costs no Energy or Rage.


    Rogues and Monks are the only Melee class with an interrupt that costs a considerable amount of their major resource. The Monks, however, get a Silence effect on top of it. I feel like that should be a glyph effect.
    this is something i've never understood. the costs to the abilities have NEVER been consistent. even back when warriors, bears, and DKs had costs, they were nowhere NEAR as steep as cats and rouges.

    and pallies/shaman? mana isn't even relevant for them unless they're in a healing spec, and no one expects healers to interrupt (outside of PVP)

  8. #28
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Yes, the interupt cost needs to be looked at. It was alright in T13 with beastly haste and therefore regen, but now we're actually one of the least reliable interrupts in the game.
    I am the lucid dream
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  9. #29
    Sure there are nerfs, but the above are mostly for balancing in PvP. However, also remember that we have also had some nice buffs/beneficial changes:

    Feint increased to 7 secs (with glyph)

    Feint has no positional requirement and no cd

    Feint acts as a 30% shield wall with Elusiveness

    Fantastic changes to poisons: no requirement to stack to 5, no requirement to carry poisons, new types of poison.

    SnD and rupture baseline durations increased

    All rogues get 15% baseline movement increase (dont have to spec it)

    AOE stealth (fun and often very useful (SOA, AB).

    All Rogues can now get Prep or Shadowstep

    Can now get a second cloak from Prep

    For Combat, insight stacking on the rogue, Killing Spree glyph, AR glyph, not having to spam revealing strike every finisher, and combat potency buffed to compensate for slower off hand speeds

    For Sub, dont have to roll Recup for energy regen, Rupture buffed

    Assassination helped with poison changes (only 1 stack of DP required), optional longer duration and overall damage Vendetta, not needing a target to be poisoned for envenom, dispatch not having positional requirement, blindside making rotation more interesting

    Shiv redesigned for a nice self heal or instant root

    Shiv dispels ALL enrage effects

    Optional ranged attack with Shuriken Toss

    Hemo bleed baked in but option to remove

    Target swapping helped with Versatility or cps saved with Anticipation if at 5 cps

    Can glyph Deadly Momentum (dont have to spec it at a DPS loss)
    Last edited by jtstormrage; 2012-10-04 at 03:45 PM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by jtstormrage View Post
    Optional ranged attack with Shuriken Toss
    considering how many whirlwind-style effects are in game right now this along with deadly throw, should be baseline, so our dps doesn't go to 0 just because we're melee.

  11. #31
    throw no longer seems to be able to apply a poison. and while it's not much it loses your raid the 5% debuff if you can't reach it
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelodalix View Post
    What the fuck did you just say.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by jtstormrage View Post
    Sure there are nerfs, but the above are mostly for balancing in PvP. However, also remember that we have also had some nice buffs/beneficial changes:

    All Rogues can now get Prep or Shadowstep
    Maybe of the things you are listing are not exactly buffs, but glyphs being baked in with skills. Anyways, I listed one particular because that's not a buff, but a horrible nerf. Also, I don't consider Shiv a buff. A "nice heal", 5% every 10 seconds at the cost of 20 energy and one GCD and it can be dodged and parried.



    Something else, paralytic poison is terrible in PVP. The root DRs itself and the 20% application rate of the poison is way too low. If you run with crippling or mind numbing, you have a 50% chance of ensnaring the opponent. With PP 20% and you lose Prey on the Weak or free blinds/gouges.
    Shadow Walk : Significantly increases Stealth effectiveness for 6 sec, but causes Stealth to be nerfed to justify its usage. In addition, it uses old Enveloping Shadows icon and has no sound, animation or spell effect to show that the skill is actually doing something.

  13. #33
    For once I gotta agree, I've been a LONG time Rogue since BC and when I hit 90, the day after I stopped playing completely. The expansion is good as a whole, seems fun but since I only enjoy(ed) playing as a Rogue, the game felt fucking boring.

    I might level a monk for the kicks or get my 85 boomie to 90. Before MoP I had 2 rogues (1 for alt raids).

    A big fuck you to all this horrific changes and a big fuck you to Blizzard for fucking up my lovely rogue like this. I enjoyed playing WoW for years, now I'm finding my self playing Torchlight 2 for fuck sake.


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