View Poll Results: What do you think of heroic dungeon difficulty?

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  • perfect

    560 61.07%
  • too easy

    357 38.93%
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  1. #601
    Quote Originally Posted by Repefe View Post
    Yeah, but then again ppl still don't want to play the fun tank role in groups. I remember spamming 5 mans in WotLK with bear one after another just pew pew for fun. I mean once you stop taking damage you basically play as a dps with tank and yes aoe dpsing is pretty fun The healer situation sucks ... kind of, since forever. Hybrids being more capable healers makes this issue smaller than before but still.
    When I play tank, I love to time my defesive CDs and have ohh shit moments when I have to quickly taunt a mob before he touches anyone else. And it pretty much frustrates me that if I wan't to do this, people think I want challenge. No this is what tanks do, and I just want to fulfill my role.

    Another and probably even more important reason is gearing. I LOVE to gear and upgrade my character. I like having to think what is the best way to upgrade my character. Which parts to get, how to gem and what enchants to get. From part to part I can feel my character getting slightly stronger in the dungeons. All of this loses its value when things are too easy. It turns into : "lol why do I bother. Either way I go, I take no damage anyway. Why am I gearing at all actually? " I don't find it fun to just increase the numbers of my stats without reason. Ohh and I don't raid :/
    Last edited by Matson; 2012-10-04 at 10:35 PM.

  2. #602
    Wouldn't be surprised if you could do them with 5 dps if you bring a hybrid or two.
    Not like you'd want to with current state of tank DPS.

  3. #603
    The game has shifted completely to satisfy those "I only have 1 hr to play after work" gamers and in general just casual gamers.
    Without seeming like an ass, if you think any different...you are the problem with this game, plain and simple.

    WoW is now comparable to most single player games. There is no sense of community whatsoever and the game caters to those who want pure instant gratification.

    The most successful expansion (TBC) was that way for a reason, players had something to aspire to and work towards.

    For those saying "oh if you want hard content do challenge modes", please stop...it is a lazy design decision, plain and simple.
    Blizzard is purely recycling the same content with varying damage increases and expects players not to get burnt out, what a joke.

    There is ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE in catering to those to casuals, no where to go but down.
    Content in TBC so satisfying because players of every demographic could ENJOY the game, without having to experience end game.

    Those arguing "I pay for this game and should be able to see end game raids"...like mentioned previously, yes you should...have the CHANCE to experience them.

    This game has gone to completely catering to those iPhone gamers that are only interested in instant gratification.
    Let me tell you something, without any sort of "work"...there is ultimately no reward.

    It annoys me that I was stupid enough to believe Blizzard would change their design philosophy at any point past early Wotlk. I feel like a complete moron for supporting this abomination longer than I should have. It annoys me that I couldn't see that after the original WoW devs left, the game has become nothing more than revenue for Blizzard.

    Yes, this is my opinion. And it is the correct one.
    Last edited by Wubz; 2012-10-04 at 10:40 PM.

  4. #604
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wubz View Post
    The game has shifted completely to satisfy those "I only have 1 hr to play after work" gamers and in general just casual gamers.
    Without seeming like an ass, if you think any different...you are the problem with this game, plain and simple.

    It hasn't though. It went with one of the least casual, asanine, time sinking and regressive methods to gate gear. DAILIES TIED TO REP. It's a massive boner for casuals because it basically means if you want the vendor point gear YOUR TIME IS TIED UP RUNNING DAILIES. The dungeons are easy is good for casuals yes but they cock blocked casuals so hard. I don't know man. It feels like Diablo. Their trying to get everybody in the pool...
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2012-10-04 at 10:49 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  5. #605
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    It hasn't though. It went with one of the least casual, asanine, time sinking and regressive methods to gate gear. DAILIES TIED TO REP. It's a massive boner for casuals because it basically means if you want the vendor point gear YOUR TIME IS TIED UP RUNNING DAILIES. The dungeons are easy is good for casuals yes but they cock blocked casuals so hard. I don't know man. It feels like Diablo. Their trying to get everybody in the pool...
    Yes, I can agree with you there.

    But this isn't a good thing at all. These are TEDIOUS time sinks for EVERYONE.

    This is blatantly obvious in questing in MoP. Quests are not difficult in the slightest...there are just hundreds of them and they are now a chore to do, instead of a challenge. Admittedly quests shouldn't be incredibly challenging, but I shouldn't have to beat my head against my desk to gain one level.

    Difficult in this game is being mistaken by Blizzard.
    Their solution is purely implementing tedious, long winded grinds instead of making content actually challenging. The time sink doesn't come from more challenging encounters, but simply "more stuff to kill".
    Last edited by Wubz; 2012-10-04 at 10:48 PM.

  6. #606
    Quote Originally Posted by Wubz View Post
    The game has shifted completely to satisfy those "I only have 1 hr to play after work" gamers and in general just casual gamers.
    Without seeming like an ass, if you think any different...you are the problem with this game, plain and simple.

    WoW is now comparable to most single player games. There is no sense of community whatsoever and the game caters to those who want pure instant gratification.

    The most successful expansion (TBC) was that way for a reason, players had something to aspire to and work towards.

    For those saying "oh if you want hard content do challenge modes", please stop...it is a lazy design decision, plain and simple.
    Blizzard is purely recycling the same content with varying damage increases and expects players not to get burnt out, what a joke.

    There is ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE in catering to those to casuals, no where to go but down.
    Content in TBC so satisfying because players of every demographic could ENJOY the game, without having to experience end game.

    Those arguing "I pay for this game and should be able to see end game raids"...like mentioned previously, yes you should...have the CHANCE to experience them.

    This game has gone to completely catering to those iPhone gamers that are only interested in instant gratification.
    Let me tell you something, without any sort of "work"...there is ultimately no reward.

    It annoys me that I was stupid enough to believe Blizzard would change their design philosophy at any point past early Wotlk. I feel like a complete moron for supporting this abomination longer than I should have. It annoys me that I couldn't see that after the original WoW devs left, the game has become nothing more than revenue for Blizzard.

    Yes, this is my opinion. And it is the correct one.
    Agreeing with you partly but there is something I have to add. Not every casual player wants to have things easy. For me BC seemed like a heaven for a casual player who wants to have acceptable difficulty and does not have much time. You didn't have to be part of a guid to do all the funny things. As soon as you dinged 70 you had loads of challenging content to do (5 mans). And if you were lucky enough you found friends from the PuGs who asked every now and then you if you wanted to join a raid. You didn't need to get too much into this game.

  7. #607
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    Congratulations, but what are you going to do tomorrow? Or 2 months from now? The problem with easy content is that players eat it up almost instantly, and then unsub. I don't know why Blizzard promotes such a system that hurts their sub numbers.
    The game has a bit more depth than a few heroic dungeons luckily. I think blizzard know better than the rest of us what works and what doesn't.

  8. #608
    Quote Originally Posted by Matson View Post
    Agreeing with you partly but there is something I have to add. Not every casual player wants to have things easy. For me BC seemed like a heaven for a casual player who wants to have acceptable difficulty and don't have much time. You didn't have to be part of a guid to do all the funny things. As soon as you dinged 70 you had loads of challenging content to do (5 mans). And if you were lucky enough you found friends from the PuGs who asked every now and then you if you wanted to join a raid. You didn't need to get too much into this game.
    Yeah, you phrased it a little better than me. Cheers.

    The problem is that casuals don't know what they want and are the "vocal majority". Only when content because too difficult/easy will they raise their concerns and this ultimately results in design decisions that constantly vary.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-04 at 10:55 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Paulosio View Post
    The game has a bit more depth than a few heroic dungeons luckily. I think blizzard know better than the rest of us what works and what doesn't.
    Yeah Blizzard sure knows what works.

    That's why they have been losing subs consistently since mid Wotlk and only gain subs prior to an expansion release...

    Clearly they've got it down.

  9. #609
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wubz View Post
    Yes, I can agree with you there.

    But this isn't a good thing at all. These are TEDIOUS time sinks for EVERYONE.

    This is blatantly obvious in questing in MoP. Quests are not difficult in the slightest...there are just hundreds of them and they are now a chore to do, instead of a challenge. Admittedly quests shouldn't be incredibly challenging, but I shouldn't have to beat my head against my desk to gain one level.

    Difficult in this game is being mistaken by Blizzard.
    Their solution is purely implementing tedious, long winded grinds instead of making content actually challenging. The time sink doesn't come from more challenging encounters, but simply "more stuff to kill".
    I agree it's tedious and it's extremely unfriendly to casuals. I agree about difficulty as well though. Easy is okay. People liked easy in wotlk because easy gave them gear so they still had a rewarding experience. Hard is good to especially if the gear is there. Hard can be rewarding in alot of ways and IMO it's the best way to make these dungeons. Nothing is as bad as easy heroics with little no reward. It is simply unfufilling
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  10. #610
    So what do casuals do when they can clear all the content? Do they just unsub like when WoW lost all those subs in 4.3?

    Let's be honest, casuals don't care about things like heroic modes or challenge mode dungeons, they just want the gear.

  11. #611
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lassira View Post
    So what do casuals do when they can clear all the content? Do they just unsub like when WoW lost all those subs in 4.3?

    Let's be honest, casuals don't care about things like heroic modes or challenge mode dungeons, they just want the gear.
    Duh. And the more blocks you put in front of that the more frustrated they get. Then they start to look at the content and think theirs nothing to do even if the world is bursting with it. NONE OF IT IS APPEALING TO THEM....
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  12. #612
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    No, THAT is a bald faced lie. The majority of the net loss in Cataclysm occurred before 4.3.
    100% false. They just lost 1.1 million in the last quarter, in case you haven't been paying attention. That right there is a majority, even if you don't include the quarters before it which also had losses.

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  13. #613
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    100% false. They just lost 1.1 million in the last quarter, in case you haven't been paying attention. That right there is a majority, even if you don't include the quarters before it which also had losses.
    You fail at arithmetic. They lost 3 million over Cataclysm. 1.1 is not a majority of 3 million.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
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  14. #614
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    You fail at arithmetic. They lost 3 million over Cataclysm. 1.1 is not a majority of 3 million.
    You're wrong regardless. They lost 600k in the first quarter after Cata was released, nerfed everything to crap to appease the casuals, and then lost 2.4 million more.

    So just to summarize, 2.4 million is a larger number than 600k.

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  15. #615
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    These are perfect. You're still subject to brutal deaths if you ignore every mechanic, but as long as you're actively trying to do it right you'll win. Unlike Cataclysm launch where if you didn't perform every action in absolute synchronization at times and interrupted EVERYTHING you would die. They tuned dungeons in Cataclysm for premades and expected 5 random people with no voice chat to be able to CC pulls (when CC generated aggro), have the tank get them off of you, interrupt the mechanics that would one-shot or just flat out deal too much damage (trash SUCKED in Cataclysm), and then you had the bosses who were rife with one-shot mechanics or massive single hits (shatter, ground slam, flame invocation, blitz, ground siege, flame shield, shock blast, etc.) I think they're tuned exactly where they should be and the challenge modes are where the hardcore wanted heroics to be in general. Go run those if heroics are too easy.
    Anyone else think Jaime Lannister only has the Kingslayer title because he was just too lazy to kill the king on heroic mode?

  16. #616
    Quote Originally Posted by Repefe View Post
    It's really not about hard or easy. It's about fun. Ultimatelly the content should be fun to play. With pugs hard content and progression is often not fun and heroic 5 mans are ultimatelly pug content. Premade content are challenge mode 5 mans and as such they should be harder.
    You're contradicting yourself here a bit, but I digress. One thing is certain, what isn't fun is having no content in a game that feels both meaningful and challenging, or, in different terms, "nothing worthwhile left to do". Granted, the definition of worthwhile will be different for everyone, but there's a consistent underlying theme going on in this thread that seems to indicate that heroic raiding should be the ONLY gear progression difficult content in the game (challenge modes aren't in this argument due to the nature of the rewards)

    So to put this another way.... you're ok with such a relatively small % of content being very challenging? You're ok with the idea that the only way to experience very challenging pve content is to be grouped with 9/24 others?
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  17. #617
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    You're contradicting yourself here a bit, but I digress. One thing is certain, what isn't fun is having no content in a game that feels both meaningful and challenging, or, in different terms, "nothing worthwhile left to do". Granted, the definition of worthwhile will be different for everyone, but there's a consistent underlying theme going on in this thread that seems to indicate that heroic raiding should be the ONLY gear progression difficult content in the game (challenge modes aren't in this argument due to the nature of the rewards)

    So to put this another way.... you're ok with such a relatively small % of content being very challenging? You're ok with the idea that the only way to experience very challenging pve content is to be grouped with 9/24 others?
    To experience very challenging pve content in a MMO yes I expect ppl having to be grouped with 4/9/24 others. That's what the multiplayer in MMO stands for. And gear progression is not something I appreciate, for all I care all gear should be cosmetic and content be gated by means other than high stat inflation. High inflation is reason why older content gets invalidated so fast. Or maybe all content should apply ilvl cap. Something like 450 for heroic 5 mans for example.

    As for the relatively small % of content being very challenging I don't know what you want. You have challenging version of raids and challenging version of 5 mans. Do you want challenging leveling up or what else is there.

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  18. #618
    Quote Originally Posted by Matson View Post
    Agreeing with you partly but there is something I have to add. Not every casual player wants to have things easy. For me BC seemed like a heaven for a casual player who wants to have acceptable difficulty and does not have much time. You didn't have to be part of a guid to do all the funny things. As soon as you dinged 70 you had loads of challenging content to do (5 mans). And if you were lucky enough you found friends from the PuGs who asked every now and then you if you wanted to join a raid. You didn't need to get too much into this game.
    I can only agree 100 % here.

  19. #619
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    You're wrong regardless. They lost 600k in the first quarter after Cata was released, nerfed everything to crap to appease the casuals, and then lost 2.4 million more.
    What you said is also a boldfaced lie...

    It took THREE quarters of losses before they "nerfed everything to crap". The major nerfs didn't happen until the very tail-end of Firelands... about a month away from 4.3... and you damn well know that. Stop adjusting the truth just to meet your "I hate casual content" view.

    You seriously expect me to believe that they nerfed all the content after Q1? You mean... when they released the TROLL DUNGEONS!? That, to you, was NERFED content? Brand-new Re-vamped ZG was NERFED CONTENT? Wasn't ZG nerfed right along with Firelands if I recall? Wasn't it a month after Firelands came out that Ghostcrawler himself said "players need to stop complaining and face the challenge"... to then 2 months later have the nerfs happen?

    Also, tell me this, if 4.3 nerfs were so bad - what made there be only 100k losses in Q1 and ZERO losses in Q2? If people hated the EZ content so much... why didn't they bail right at Q1 after 4.3 came out? Why did they suddenly dramatically slow down?

    EDIT: and why did 1.1 million leave in Q3? Well, MAYBE it has to do with not JUST the content getting stale fast, Unlike Wrath - which had 15 dungeons in the random queue vs THREE in HoT queues... and lets face it, that's ALL the dungeons those people ran... combined with a particularly large named game about a character-driven fantasy style game by the same makers of World of Warcraft... that JUST so happened to be advertised directly to them, even used as a marketing perk for (gasp!) over 1 million AP users!
    Last edited by mvallas; 2012-10-05 at 06:58 AM.
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  20. #620
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    fine the way they are. ive played since 2006 and i like that i can get in a dungeon, get what i need and get out quickly. i am by no means a top tier player but im also not some random noob who doesnt know that im doing. i dont think its fun to do a dungeon over and over that i know is going to take me an hour at least to complete. i seem to remember VERY clearly back in BC people only wanting to run mechanar and slave pens because you could get 3 badges (or however many it was) in about 15 mins with very little effort.

    people look back and say that the harder heroics of BC were amazing and everyone loved them. that couldnt be further from the truth. i remember people hating shattered halls and shadow labs because they were long and took forever. i find it funny now that people ask for heroics of that difficulty again and when blizzard tries to bring something like that back (beginning of cataclysm) people complain. then when they take thing back to the easier dungeons of wrath....people STILL complain.

    mists heroics are fine the way they are. quick and easy. the BC style heroics are fun the first couple times then they just become a chore to work through. ill take the quick 15 min runs over that any day.

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