View Poll Results: What do you think of heroic dungeon difficulty?

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  • perfect

    560 61.07%
  • too easy

    357 38.93%
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  1. #621
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    What you said is also a boldfaced lie...

    It took THREE quarters of losses before they "nerfed everything to crap". The major nerfs didn't happen until the very tail-end of Firelands... about a month away from 4.3...
    Wrong, the first wave of massive nerfs was with the 4.0.6, as already said in this thread.
    You seriously expect me to believe that they nerfed all the content after Q1? You mean... when they released the TROLL DUNGEONS!? That, to you, was NERFED content? Brand-new Re-vamped ZG was NERFED CONTENT? Wasn't ZG nerfed right along with Firelands if I recall? Wasn't it a month after Firelands came out that Ghostcrawler himself said "players need to stop complaining and face the challenge"... to then 2 months later have the nerfs happen?
    Wrong again.
    First, the troll instances were very, very easy. Not as facerollable as LK heroics, but still boringly easy. The difference is that in LK you could faceroll them with PuG, while ZA/ZG were facerollable with premade. Still nothing even close to challenging.
    Second, the famous Ghostcrawler saying "yes, heroics are hard" actually happened less than one week before the massive nerfs of 4.0.6.
    This actually was extremely ironic to see side-to-side one Blizzard news about how the content was adequately tuned and it was up to the players to learn to play, and one Blizzard news caving in to the whiners, the entitled and the bads with "well, they are overtuned, we will adjust them".
    Also, tell me this, if 4.3 nerfs were so bad - what made there be only 100k losses in Q1 and ZERO losses in Q2? If people hated the EZ content so much... why didn't they bail right at Q1 after 4.3 came out? Why did they suddenly dramatically slow down?
    Annual pass.

  2. #622
    Scarab Lord Zka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    Except for the wipefests at Bran Bronzebeard, King Dred, Xevozz, Ley-Guardian Eregos, and especially in Ahn'Kahet during the first few weeks.
    Every 2nd person instantly left the group after the AK and Oculus loading screens, even during ToC times.
    Wipefests there? Sorry, never. Unless the group was horribly bad. Oculus was only hard for retards or whoever got grouped with them, that explains the instant leaves. I cannot begint to imagine what could be the problem with AK, it was short and easy.

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  3. #623
    alittle too easy for being everyone is in almost blues and greens. Especially after reading that people just 4dps 1 tank them -_-

  4. #624
    Quote Originally Posted by Wubz View Post
    The game has shifted completely to satisfy those "I only have 1 hr to play after work" gamers and in general just casual gamers.
    Without seeming like an ass, if you think any different...you are the problem with this game, plain and simple.

    WoW is now comparable to most single player games. There is no sense of community whatsoever and the game caters to those who want pure instant gratification.

    The most successful expansion (TBC) was that way for a reason, players had something to aspire to and work towards.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wubz View Post
    Yes, I can agree with you there.

    But this isn't a good thing at all. These are TEDIOUS time sinks for EVERYONE.

    This is blatantly obvious in questing in MoP. Quests are not difficult in the slightest...there are just hundreds of them and they are now a chore to do, instead of a challenge. Admittedly quests shouldn't be incredibly challenging, but I shouldn't have to beat my head against my desk to gain one level.

    Difficult in this game is being mistaken by Blizzard.
    Their solution is purely implementing tedious, long winded grinds instead of making content actually challenging. The time sink doesn't come from more challenging encounters, but simply "more stuff to kill".
    Ok are you playing the same game as me and did you play the same BC I did?

    In MOP casuals won't even make it into LFR when it comes out if the play one hour a day. You will need 463, and you have to rep grind.

    You fondly mention TBC, but you forget you had to rep grind for keys to get in heroics. So I am confused with the glorification of BC then the complaint of rep grinding. BC had a ton of rep grinds, attunements etc.

    Oh and since when has questing been hard?
    "Peace is a lie"

  5. #625
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    You're wrong regardless. They lost 600k in the first quarter after Cata was released, nerfed everything to crap to appease the casuals, and then lost 2.4 million more.

    So just to summarize, 2.4 million is a larger number than 600k.
    Ah yes, another "special" person who wants to think that all the nerfs of Cataclysm occurred in H1 2011.

    You are self-identifying yourself as a person who is incapable of having an opinion of any value.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  6. #626
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Ah yes, another "special" person who wants to think that all the nerfs of Cataclysm occurred in H1 2011.
    I think the problem is none of them actually seem to understand they are not the average player, not at all.

    Anyone that says Cataclysm heroics were "faceroll" or that they were nerfed in the first patch to be anything viable to casuals never actually paid attention. The troll heroics in 4.2 were the most numbingly difficult heroics I had to deal with since BC, and I hated them for it. They will still come in and say how "easy" it was though, because they think of themselves as "omg sooooo pro".

  7. #627
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrno View Post
    It's about what we think ourselves, not what blizzard thinks
    Even in a site like MMO, where most casuals never come and its audience has more % of hardcore people than in WoW, according to this poll we think its better like they are now.

    And Blizzard seems to agree.

  8. #628
    Just make heroics to award VP when you do them outside LFD. Difficulty is fine when you duo-trio these dungeons.

  9. #629
    Mechagnome Boogieknight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Wrong, the first wave of massive nerfs was with the 4.0.6, as already said in this thread.
    I would consider those tuning and not nerfs. If you check through all of that you'll see that several bosses were buffed, and some mechanics were altered to adjust for random party makeup, or the massive issue several people had with latency. At 4.0 prior to Cata dropping I went from a world latency of ~60-80 to 400+ with no change on my end, just the patch. Mechanics such as Static Cling, Shatter, Ground Slam, Cursed Bullets, etc. were a death sentence to me because as soon as I saw the cast bar I knew I was already dead server-side. Some CC necessary mechanics were also hit because of obvious lack of CC in some randoms. I kid you not, I was in in multiple randoms with a warrior tank and a DK and Warrior for the other 2 DPS making my Repentance and whatever the healer had the only CC (when they still generated aggro and you had to be REALLLLY good at planning that stuff without voice chat.) Justice points were also added to the 85 dungeons and the random dungeon reward was increased to 140 because if you had issues with heroics you were stuck earning 490 total justice points for the week and taking weeks to earn the currency for one purchaseable upgrade. They also removed the trick people were using to avoid certain dungeons by making it no longer necessary to find the dungeons to queue for them. Several people were purposely ignoring finding Grim Batol and Halls of Origination because they were long, difficult, and HoO also had too many optional bosses that people would skip even if someone needed an upgrade from them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Wrong again.
    First, the troll instances were very, very easy. Not as facerollable as LK heroics, but still boringly easy. The difference is that in LK you could faceroll them with PuG, while ZA/ZG were facerollable with premade. Still nothing even close to challenging.
    Bullshit! I don't think what I emphasized in your quote can be driven home any further. PREMADES DID NOT HAVE THE ISSUES THAT RANDOMS DID!!!!! LFD was a tool that was meant to be used, but you were in essence punished in the dungeons for using them with random people. The troll dungeons were so over the top it was obscene if you were in a random, and unless you were in current tier raid gear (ie. the dungeons offered you no upgrades and just easy access to maelstrom crystals) you were incapable of "facerolling" them. I can't think of one time I survived a fight against Venoxis as a DPS. Every time it was always the tank and maybe the healer taking him down. The closest I got was with my mage because ranged didn't get the toxic link if they were far enough apart. I only died on that one because of the toxic maze followed by getting linked with someone who wouldn't run away from me. The mechanics were brutal, hit for WAY too much damage, and punished you for a slight mistake (taking 50k damage for a fraction of a second if you accidentally stepped in the green fog was over the top.) Zanzil sucked ass and still does. Jin'Do was just as awful trying to explain to people exactly HOW you were supposed to destroy the chains using only the chat log, and no matter what someone would not stay near a chain and it took too long to break the fist one because it seemed they were always the one targeted. They were unforgiving, brutal, necessary grinds to upgrade the several slots for the millions of people who couldn't raid that expansion and were stuck with 333/346 items (shoulders, helm, strength weapons, and wand/offhand) as well as the only way to cap valor if you couldn't raid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Second, the famous Ghostcrawler saying "yes, heroics are hard" actually happened less than one week before the massive nerfs of 4.0.6.
    This actually was extremely ironic to see side-to-side one Blizzard news about how the content was adequately tuned and it was up to the players to learn to play, and one Blizzard news caving in to the whiners, the entitled and the bads with "well, they are overtuned, we will adjust them".

    Annual pass.
    You need to realize what they did finally: Dungeons were never tuned to be run with 5 random players. All the internal and beta tests were with premade groups with good communication and external voice chat. As soon as you put any 5 random people in a group you have to rely on typing commands which is not exactly something easily done in the middle of the fight. Additionally too many of the mechanics were one-shot where if you missed it by accident or had latency too high to avoid (Ozruk's shatter is the prime example of this) you were dead and the group wiped. Dungeons were designed to punish you for mistakes instead of rewarding you for playing correctly. Not a way to tune a necessary portion of gameplay. Also several of the dungeons (Deadmines was a main culprit) had overly unnecessary amounts of trash that had the exact same possibility of destroying your group as the bosses. Trash should NEVER be as hard as the bosses.
    Anyone else think Jaime Lannister only has the Kingslayer title because he was just too lazy to kill the king on heroic mode?

  10. #630
    Vanilla was tedious.
    TBC release heroics where crazy hard. Some of them where worse than raids before they got nerfed. After nerfs they ranged from /faceroll to /wrist.
    Wotlk heroics where a joke but I never felt the need to punch any terrible players in the face. I just laughed at them.
    Cata heroics where ease if and only if everyone understood each boss and did their job. Far to many bosses had one hit mechanics.

    Mop going back to something similar to Wotlk is great. Also love the challenge modes for those of us that might actually want to run a 5 man that is hard.

  11. #631
    The Lightbringer Bigbazz's Avatar
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    Well we got in to our first LFD heroic guild group thanks to our random direbrew trinkets that we werent using but had to equip to get in (I had 1 tank and 1 intelect on my dps warr), then we cleared it without issue in half questing/lvl85 gear. Too easy yes, easier than wrath heroics definitely. But since there are challenge modes I dont think it really matters all that much.
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  12. #632
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Read their blog about rep they mention the dungeons at one point.

    we feel dungeons are already rewarding
    You've got to be fucking kidding me. REWARDING? This has been by far the least rewarding dungeon experience I've ever had in the game. It's not rewarding from a challenge aspect. It's not even rewarding from a gear aspect. You've got to be kidding me.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  13. #633
    Elemental Lord Arbs's Avatar
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    Blizzard said they would be easy, the real challenge is Challenge modes. Which they stated in many blue posts.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-06 at 03:21 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Skizo View Post
    So the only content meant to be even remotely challenging is the absolute top-end content?
    That's embarassing
    No it isn't cause WoW is always been about end-game.

  14. #634
    Blizzard said they would be easy, the real challenge is Challenge modes. Which they stated in many blue posts.
    I am not asking for challenge. I am asking them not to be so easy that Tanks job is to DPS and healers job is to AFK.

  15. #635
    It's probably been said but: Heroics never had the same intention they had in Cataclysm and BC. They are basically slightly more difficult then the 90 Dungeons would be if they existed. (Normal Shattered Halls equiv)

  16. #636
    Bloodsail Admiral Darkis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HollerTH View Post
    Vanilla was tedious.
    TBC release heroics where crazy hard. Some of them where worse than raids before they got nerfed. After nerfs they ranged from /faceroll to /wrist.
    Wotlk heroics where a joke but I never felt the need to punch any terrible players in the face. I just laughed at them.
    Cata heroics where ease if and only if everyone understood each boss and did their job. Far to many bosses had one hit mechanics.

    Mop going back to something similar to Wotlk is great. Also love the challenge modes for those of us that might actually want to run a 5 man that is hard.
    This. While difficulty is laughable, it allows to carry the most exceptional mouthbreathers without wanting to bash their heads in.
    AFK: Attack, fight, kill! Healer is bored with spamming hots.
    WTF: Way to fight! Healer loves you for pulling three trash packs.
    OOM: Out Of Mobs! Healer needs a challenge.

  17. #637
    Quote Originally Posted by Archdruid Dehydrate View Post
    Blizzard said they would be easy, the real challenge is Challenge modes. Which they stated in many blue posts.
    Why can't we have a challenge and progression at 5-man? Wooo challenge mode, where I get the appropriate challenge I want, but then all i get is a new colour armour that I have to PAY to transmog onto something else. Doesn't help me gain better gear for anything else, improve my ilvl, or anything. So if I don't have the time to invest in playing the game like "hardcore players" I get abused on forums for doing "easy mode" LFR, or I get to sit in my heroic blues, but maybe, just maybe.. I can be good enough to have a different colour skin on them.
    Not all of us care about waving our epeen around SW. We just want to feel that we are improving our characters.
    Gear reskins, is not a good reward for anything but epeen waving.

  18. #638
    Quote Originally Posted by gingersenshi View Post
    Why can't we have a challenge and progression at 5-man?
    Because when Blizzard tried that, it cost them hundreds of millions of dollars. This is a dead simple proposition; try to understand it.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  19. #639
    Quote Originally Posted by gingersenshi View Post
    Why can't we have a challenge and progression at 5-man? Wooo challenge mode, where I get the appropriate challenge I want, but then all i get is a new colour armour that I have to PAY to transmog onto something else. Doesn't help me gain better gear for anything else, improve my ilvl, or anything. So if I don't have the time to invest in playing the game like "hardcore players" I get abused on forums for doing "easy mode" LFR, or I get to sit in my heroic blues, but maybe, just maybe.. I can be good enough to have a different colour skin on them.
    Not all of us care about waving our epeen around SW. We just want to feel that we are improving our characters.
    Gear reskins, is not a good reward for anything but epeen waving.
    100% Agree!

    This whole system where progression dungeons are easy , and dungeons where you can't get upgrades and which cannot be outgeared are challenging. It makes me wonder : Don't people actually like upgrading their characters anymore?
    I don't feel like it's any fun to upgrade my character if I don't have any need of doing that. There is no "Hey you remember when it took forever for us to kill these mobs? " or.. "you remember when these mobs used to 2shot the tank , haha? " .. It feels like you are simply raising the stat numbers. Has the need of having really powerful character gone over the true feeling of getting improvements that you actually need ?

    And also this Challenge mode system. I don't really get it at all. Is the epeen raising so fun? To show others: "Look at my gear noobs, I have done some challenging content " . I don't care how others see my gear. I just want to feel myself how my character is getting upgraded. WoW had always been game like this. But to get that I have to be in a part of raiding guild these days.

    When I was last time arguing with someone about challenge mode system someone just answered " So it's just about gear! I knew it" .. I mean, he was right. But what is the bad thing in it? Why shouldn't I want to get better gear?

  20. #640
    why do you whiners even fucking care about 5-mans dungeons?
    its known that almost everyone runs HC with the LFD tool and its proven that random groups collapse when facing hard content.
    thats just how shit goes random group of strangers + hard content = NOT OK
    Heroics are PERFECT like they are,want some hard content?go challenge modes

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