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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by vizzle View Post
    And thus, the illusion is ultimately broken. Those who invest time in the game to get things are only wasting their time, because the rich kid down the street can just borrow the credit card from his dad's wallet. Time = money, yes, but that should not apply to an immersive MMORPG. Previously immersive.

    The mindset will change as new generations of gamers come in and the 80s/90s kids become their parents. Blizzard is paving a way for this crap, and I'm glad I'll be old enough not to be brainwashed into believing it's alright.
    So it boils down to caring what others get? I suppose that's why I don't understand it then; I just don't care about what others do or do not achieve in-game. If someone wants to spend £500 on an awesome set of gear, good for them; I'll have fun by putting the time in and earning it that way. It's still very immersive and fun for me, and that's all I care about. I mean, I don't think I'm wasting my time by playing the game and having fun. Do you feel like you've wasted your time after watching a movie, even though there's no tangible reward at the end of it? Or do you just watch the movie to have fun, enjoy the movie?

    Perhaps this is what has been forgotten in this day and age: we play games to have fun. Just because someone else wants to buy all the top-end gear immediately, does that mean our own fun is directly affected? It shouldn't, at any rate! And it definitely wouldn't for me.
    Last edited by Kisho; 2012-10-03 at 12:19 PM.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Voidmaster View Post
    Heroic items going on the BMAH is just the biggest bullshit i have seen in the history of this game....

    It should just be vanity stuff on there.
    One step closer towards D3's RMAH.
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  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Kisho View Post
    So it boils down to caring what others get? I suppose that's why I don't understand it then; I just don't care about what others do or do not achieve in-game. If someone wants to spend £500 on an awesome set of gear, good for them; I'll have fun by putting the time in and earning it that way. It's still very immersive and fun for me, and that's all I care about. I mean, I don't think I'm wasting my time by playing the game and having fun. Do you feel like you've wasted your time after watching a movie, even though there's no tangible reward at the end of it? Or do you just watch the movie to have fun, enjoy the movie?

    Perhaps this is what has been forgotten in this day and age: we play games to have fun. Just because someone else wants to buy all the top-end gear immediately, does that mean our own fun is directly affected? It shouldn't, at any rate! And it definitely wouldn't for me.
    This is about having a sense of achievement. Games are fun, but what makes MMORPGs stand out is that you can be the big dog if you put enough time into it. Do you think people enjoy spending 200-300 hours doing the Insane achievement? No. So why do they do it? Because it sets them out, it's a badge of honor. The same goes with mounts like Mimi's Head, Invincible, Ashes of A'lar: these are all signs that the player was in a guild that could clear those raids back in their heyday, or that they farmed the crap out of it until RNG was finally nice enough to them (and there are the few cases who got it on the first go, but it doesn't put the point aside). Those mounts are not only revered because of how cool they look, but also because of what they mean. It's a prestigious thing to have heroic gear early on, amazing mounts.

    But when you open it up so that any idiot with money can get those things, you're allowing him to bypass the entire difficulty of attaining it, and so you're rendering any of the difficulty unnecessary. The prestige goes away, the shine goes away, because what you worked for, other people can just buy the exact same thing. It becomes sullied and muddled.

    I play(ed) the game for fun, yes, but part of the fun was the prestige in knowing that I made my character as best as it could be. I don't care if other people had the things I had, because they all had to put the same effort that I did. But when you can just buy it? That's ruined. Knowing that people could just open their wallets and get all the stuff that I worked my ass for makes it all null.
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  4. #64
    Titan Adam Jensen's Avatar
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    You can get current heroic gear from the BMAH?

    Whaaa? I thought it was just vanity items for transmog, mounts and pets.

    If a video game developer removed tumors from players, they'd whine about nerfing their loss in weight and access to radiation powers. -Cracked.com

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by vizzle View Post
    This is about having a sense of achievement. Games are fun, but what makes MMORPGs stand out is that you can be the big dog if you put enough time into it. Do you think people enjoy spending 200-300 hours doing the Insane achievement? No. So why do they do it? Because it sets them out, it's a badge of honor. The same goes with mounts like Mimi's Head, Invincible, Ashes of A'lar: these are all signs that the player was in a guild that could clear those raids back in their heyday, or that they farmed the crap out of it until RNG was finally nice enough to them (and there are the few cases who got it on the first go, but it doesn't put the point aside). Those mounts are not only revered because of how cool they look, but also because of what they mean. It's a prestigious thing to have heroic gear early on, amazing mounts.

    But when you open it up so that any idiot with money can get those things, you're allowing him to bypass the entire difficulty of attaining it, and so you're rendering any of the difficulty unnecessary. The prestige goes away, the shine goes away, because what you worked for, other people can just buy the exact same thing. It becomes sullied and muddled.

    I play(ed) the game for fun, yes, but part of the fun was the prestige in knowing that I made my character as best as it could be. I don't care if other people had the things I had, because they all had to put the same effort that I did. But when you can just buy it? That's ruined. Knowing that people could just open their wallets and get all the stuff that I worked my ass for makes it all null.
    Sure, it's nice to be special. It's a major instinctual motivation for many people. I dunno though... In the situations you describe, I'd still be very happy to know that I worked hard and I achieved it. My memories of the achievements are what make me special; I know I worked hard for it, I have the memories to prove it. I'm proud of what I have achieved and nobody can take that away from me, even those who buy their way to the achievement (which has already been going on, with GDKP runs and people buying mounts from hardcore guilds).

    If I worked hard and got, say, Mimiron's head from Yogg Saron back in the day, then found someone in MoP had bought it from the BMAH, I'd probably congratulate them on earning that gold, then it would cause me to reminisce about the good times I had getting my own mount.

    Sure, maybe the items themselves can become more common, more 'sullied'... The memories though? They'll stay forever. The fun you had at the time, the utter joy of finally triumphing against the odds and being rewarded for your efforts... Nothing, and nobody can ever take that away. Those memories are yours. That's what makes it special.

    For me, anyway. That's why I'm perfectly ok with the BMAH. Hell, if anything I'd somewhat pity those who just buy their way to mounts/gear... They don't get the opportunity of making those brilliant memories!

  6. #66
    which has already been going on, with GDKP runs and people buying mounts from hardcore guilds
    And even then, I don't care as much, because they did earn the gold somehow. I think you're interpreting what I'm saying wrongly, a bit. If they earned the gold legitimately, it doesn't bother me. The original argument was about people buying gold with cash to buy the BMAH items. That's what bothers me.

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  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by vizzle View Post
    This is about having a sense of achievement. Games are fun, but what makes MMORPGs stand out is that you can be the big dog if you put enough time into it. Do you think people enjoy spending 200-300 hours doing the Insane achievement? No. So why do they do it? Because it sets them out, it's a badge of honor. The same goes with mounts like Mimi's Head, Invincible, Ashes of A'lar: these are all signs that the player was in a guild that could clear those raids back in their heyday, or that they farmed the crap out of it until RNG was finally nice enough to them (and there are the few cases who got it on the first go, but it doesn't put the point aside). Those mounts are not only revered because of how cool they look, but also because of what they mean. It's a prestigious thing to have heroic gear early on, amazing mounts.

    But when you open it up so that any idiot with money can get those things, you're allowing him to bypass the entire difficulty of attaining it, and so you're rendering any of the difficulty unnecessary. The prestige goes away, the shine goes away, because what you worked for, other people can just buy the exact same thing. It becomes sullied and muddled.

    I play(ed) the game for fun, yes, but part of the fun was the prestige in knowing that I made my character as best as it could be. I don't care if other people had the things I had, because they all had to put the same effort that I did. But when you can just buy it? That's ruined. Knowing that people could just open their wallets and get all the stuff that I worked my ass for makes it all null.
    Money buys anything. I don't see why the same shouldn't be true in WoW. They desperately need a huge goldsink like this anyway, half of my close friends are sporting against the gold cap on their characters, running around with a few million gold without knowing what to spend it on isn't really fun either...

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by vizzle View Post
    And even then, I don't care as much, because they did earn the gold somehow. I think you're interpreting what I'm saying wrongly, a bit. If they earned the gold legitimately, it doesn't bother me. The original argument was about people buying gold with cash to buy the BMAH items. That's what bothers me.

    My last post.
    And I'm saying as long as 'someone' earned the gold legitimately, then it's fine. If person A farms the gold, sells to person B who then buys a rare mount from the BMAH, why is that different than person A farming the gold and buying the mount?

    EDIT: Or, y'know, gear as the original topic was about.

  9. #69
    Because buying gold with real life money is the last hammer to the illusion of the game. It moves away from a form of online escapism, one where players are not defined by how much money they have in their wallets, but by how much effort they've placed in the game. It stops being an immersive MMORPG and becomes a better version of Farmville. Letting players progress with $$$ is one of the biggest things that puts people off from F2P and other games. The game should be separate from your wallet. Sure, you can have vanity things for cash, but when you pass the line where cash can buy you upgrades, then you've gone too far. I detest that aspect about D3, but it's not as significant as it would be in WoW, because WoW is actually a real world MMORPG, where immersion trumps everything else.
    This is exactly the point that people (often deliberately) miss when they deny that there's a problem with this. The ability to buy the best items in the game, even in limited quantities and selections, is such a deathblow to the integrity of the game. It cheapens everything for those who actually do play the game. It's the same reason literally nobody is serious about Diablo III - the game invokes no incentive to care because there's no way to tell who worked for it and who bought it and, consequently, no way to prove which you did. I can certainly state as objective fact that quite a lot of players lose interest in any game with a real pay-to-win element. The way this flies in the face of Blizzard's eight-year battle against gold sellers is just added hilarity, although it's also a blatant herald of a coming F2P model where they sell the gold themselves.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Noselacri View Post
    This is exactly the point that people (often deliberately) miss when they deny that there's a problem with this. The ability to buy the best items in the game, even in limited quantities and selections, is such a deathblow to the integrity of the game. It cheapens everything for those who actually do play the game. It's the same reason literally nobody is serious about Diablo III - the game invokes no incentive to care because there's no way to tell who worked for it and who bought it and, consequently, no way to prove which you did. I can certainly state as objective fact that quite a lot of players lose interest in any game with a real pay-to-win element. The way this flies in the face of Blizzard's eight-year battle against gold sellers is just added hilarity, although it's also a blatant herald of a coming F2P model where they sell the gold themselves.
    You should probably go read some of my posts. I've addressed this exact point.

    In short, the problem is that you care too much about what other people do/do not have. Try not doing that and instead focusing on yourself, your own fun and achievements. You may end up happier this way.

  11. #71
    Or maybe you should stop pretending like you're the judge of what I can and cannot care about. This is a blow to the integrity of the game. It cheapens my efforts. It removes most of the reasons I have for playing the game and reduces it to the literal act of killing things without all the surrounding systems that make it a cohesive, worthwhile game. Like I said, it's the same reason nobody is ever really serious about any pay-to-win game.

    There's a reason for it. It's not that everybody is wrong and you're right. This is just one step of the progress towards simply letting players pick through a catalogue of all the game's items, and while it isn't quite so bad yet, the same principle is being encroached upon. This game was not hurting from the lack of an ability to purchase the best assets available through gameplay, but it's very obvious that many players hate its introduction. This alone, this very fact, makes it a terrible addition to the game.

    It doesn't fill a serious need, but it alienates yet another segment of the game's veteran players. The pros are not even remotely close to out-weighing the cons, just as with D3's RMAH, which something like a quarter of the people who quit D3 cite as one of the primary reasons for ditching that game almost immediately. What itemization-based MMORPG has ever achieved serious competitive success with a pay-to-win model? The only game that even comes close is Diablo II, and that game worked on wildly different premises and can barely be compared to any modern title, nor was it ever actually competitive in any meaningful way or taken particularly seriously by dedicated gamers. Guild Wars 2 is not itemization-based in the least, so its gem sale means very little as acquiring gear is such a small and inconsequential part of that type of game.

    No game in which the main purpose of gameplay is the acquisition of items can succesfully introduce a way to obtain these items without engaging in the associated gameplay. It's really one of the core tenets of game design. It doesn't matter that it's currently limited to a few items, both because it's the principle of it and because it's very obvious that this is just the first step. Once the implications of this start to sink in with the broader playerbase, I'd expect serious and near-universal criticism of the BMAH. It's clear that most people thought it was for vanity and legacy items, not BiS raid gear. That was the last sacred thing about this game. Everything else has been crushed under the weight of striving to appeal to the absolute bottom of the MMORPG barrel.
    Last edited by Noselacri; 2012-10-03 at 01:58 PM.

  12. #72
    So let me get this straight; people are complaining because some random schmuck can get purchase a heroic item. That heroic item, in and of itself, doesn't mean squat. There is no achievement related to buying an item. There is no badge of honor or badge of 'im some bad ass guy that can hit 1-4 in order". Buying something means jack and shit. Seriously, you people really need to get over your fascination of what other people are wearing and/or doing in game and concentrate on your own experience. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the BMAH.

  13. #73
    Warchief Kilpi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voidmaster View Post
    Heroic items going on the BMAH is just the biggest bullshit i have seen in the history of this game....

    It should just be vanity stuff on there.
    Yes, because one piece of gear in like 1-3 weeks is game breaking...

  14. #74
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    Crazy money! It'll be surpassed by vendor gear in a couple of patches time :|
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  15. #75
    Scarab Lord cubby's Avatar
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    Where is the BMAH located?
    The less you know, the more you believe.


    Actually, Mr. Lennon, I CAN imagine a world with no hate, religion, war, or violence.
    I can also imagine attacking such a world, because they would never see it coming.

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