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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeleena View Post
    Critical Block is on DR now just like Block and Dodge and Parry. The moment you equip your shield, Critical Block is already on 33% DR.
    Wrong. BLOCK is on DR. Crit block has no DR.

  2. #22
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Just a quick thing, I don't get what's meant by "bleed excess rage with Barrier". Since Block and be used 2x in a row and then goes on cooldown, this means get say 120 Rage, back to back Shield Blocks, then while Block is on cooldown use Barrier until it's almost ready to come off, at which point you get at least 60 for Block again? So rarely use full Barriers?
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  3. #23
    The Lightbringer Amulree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    Just a quick thing, I don't get what's meant by "bleed excess rage with Barrier". Since Block and be used 2x in a row and then goes on cooldown, this means get say 120 Rage, back to back Shield Blocks, then while Block is on cooldown use Barrier until it's almost ready to come off, at which point you get at least 60 for Block again? So rarely use full Barriers?
    That’s not really what it means, matey. Look at it like this:

    - You’re at 90 rage, so you hit Shield Block and drop down to 30.
    - After this, you go for a Shield Slam and get an Enrage – use Shield Block (your 2nd charge of it).
    - Shield Block is still on cooldown, but you’re about to rage cap; here, use a full strength barrier.

    If you’re prioritising Shield Block, you’re ONLY using a barrier when Shield Block is on cooldown and you’re about to hit the rage cap (thus, start wasting rage). You wouldn’t use a barrier at low rage at all.

    I hope that’s a wee bit clearer.

  4. #24
    Look. I'm going to spell this out for you guys as easily as possible. http://www.wowpedia.org/Combat_rating_system

    Mastery 1% Mastery 600.0
    Parry 1% parry chance 885.0
    Dodge 1% dodge chance 885.0

    1% Mastery is 1% Block and .5% chance to critical block. 1% block is .3% mitigation and .5% critical block is .35% mitigation so 1% Mastery is .65% mitigation. To get 1% mitigation from Block/Crit Block you need 923 Mastery Rating with no diminishing returns. Parry and Dodge are 1% avoidance at 885 rating with no diminishing returns.

    Now, Shield Block has a 9 sec CD with 2 max charges. Assuming you generate enough rage to keep Shield Block on CD, the first 24 seconds of any fight you have complete CTC coverage. For the remaining 36 seconds you have 24 seconds of uptime, giving you 80% uptime the first minute and 66.6% uptime for the remaining minutes. So at hit/expertise cap 40% of your mastery is worthless, then 33.3% of your mastery is worthless so you need 1132 Mastery to gain 1% mitigation for the first minute and 1088 Mastery Rating for each following minute.

    The moment you equip your shield, you're already at 17% block/crit block so your Mastery is already on a 34% DR which translates into it requiring 1517 Mastery Rating to gain 1% mitigation for the first minute of combat an 1457 Mastery Rating to gain 1% mitigation for each following minute.

    1517 Mastery Rating is 632 Rating more than the 885 Rating required for 1% Dodge/Parry. Dodge and Parry will be equal in mitigation to Mastery when they reach 71.4% diminished returns, or 35.7% Dodge/Parry for the first minute of combat. 1457 Mastery Rating is 572 more rating than 1% Dodge/Parry. Dodge and Parry will be equal in mitigation to mastery when they reach 64.6% diminished returns or 32.3% Dodge/Parry.

    So to maximize mitigation you raise dodge/parry to 32.3% then increase Mastery by 1.9 rating per point of Dodge and Parry.

    So Warrior Stat Priority is Stam(to health floor)>Hit/Expertise Soft Cap>32.3% Dodge/Parry> 1.9% Mastery = 1% Dodge = 1% Parry.
    Last edited by Kaeleena; 2012-10-03 at 02:14 PM.
    Vanilla WoW was a diamond in the rough. Burning Crusade cleared the rough away and polished that diamond up. During Lich King, that diamond cracked from being over polished and in Cataclysm that diamond was replaced with a cubic zirconia.


  5. #25
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine View Post
    That’s not really what it means, matey. Look at it like this:

    - You’re at 90 rage, so you hit Shield Block and drop down to 30.
    - After this, you go for a Shield Slam and get an Enrage – use Shield Block (your 2nd charge of it).
    - Shield Block is still on cooldown, but you’re about to rage cap; here, use a full strength barrier.

    If you’re prioritising Shield Block, you’re ONLY using a barrier when Shield Block is on cooldown and you’re about to hit the rage cap (thus, start wasting rage). You wouldn’t use a barrier at low rage at all.

    I hope that’s a wee bit clearer.
    Much clearer. Thanks Thy.
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeleena View Post

    So Warrior Stat Priority is Stam(to health floor)>Hit/Expertise Soft Cap>32.3% Dodge/Parry> 1.9% Mastery = 1% Dodge = 1% Parry.
    I'm guessing you die alot. Why the fuck would you want to destroy your warrior by doing this?

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by CapM View Post
    I'm guessing you die alot. Why the fuck would you want to destroy your warrior by doing this?
    No, actually I've only died in group once since MoP launched and that was only because I got clipped by Armsmaster Harlan's Blade of Light. Hit/Expertise invalidates the block portion of Mastery which is on DR now same as Dodge and Parry.

    Edit: Also, parry apparently only has 27% less diminishing returns than Dodge, so in all reality the number is actually 16.15% Dodge and 20.6% Parry.
    Last edited by Kaeleena; 2012-10-03 at 02:37 PM.
    Vanilla WoW was a diamond in the rough. Burning Crusade cleared the rough away and polished that diamond up. During Lich King, that diamond cracked from being over polished and in Cataclysm that diamond was replaced with a cubic zirconia.


  8. #28
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Honestly all I'm getting from this debate is that nobody can agree. It seems either Hit/Exp or Parry/Dodge, depending on if you want to have smoother damage intake, but take more overall during the course of the fight, or take less overall damage but they might be spikier. I don't know about you, but I would always pick a smoother intake so my healers know what to expect, rather than risk the T11-T12 Death Knight scenario where one minute they're living, the next they're dead because of a damage spike. In Cataclysm we hit the CTC cap to achieve smooth and predictable incoming damage; while we can't "cap" anymore, I see no reason why we shouldn't continue along that road.
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  9. #29
    The Lightbringer Amulree's Avatar
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    You’re welcome, Arothand.

    Kaeleena – I’m going to spell this out to you as clearly as possible.

    Until you start accepting that the value of mastery is NOT solely in combat table coverage, you’re not going to understand why it’s a more valuable stat in a hit/expertise build. I’ve already said that prioritising dodge and parry with Shield Barrier will net a higher TDR, but I’m trying to also tell you that hit/expertise/mastery is the smoother option to take because there are less chances of a spike.

    The work has been done for you at Sacred Duty, so you can either accept that what you’re saying goes against overwhelming observable evidence, or you can keep spouting the same crap about CTC and continuing to miss the point entirely.

    I leave the choice up to you.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine View Post
    You’re welcome, Arothand.

    Kaeleena – I’m going to spell this out to you as clearly as possible.

    Until you start accepting that the value of mastery is NOT solely in combat table coverage, you’re not going to understand why it’s a more valuable stat in a hit/expertise build. I’ve already said that prioritising dodge and parry with Shield Barrier will net a higher TDR, but I’m trying to also tell you that hit/expertise/mastery is the smoother option to take because there are less chances of a spike.

    The work has been done for you at Sacred Duty, so you can either accept that what you’re saying goes against overwhelming observable evidence, or you can keep spouting the same crap about CTC and continuing to miss the point entirely.

    I leave the choice up to you.
    Outside of Shield Block, Mastery has no more value than dodge/parry as mitigation because rolling on 2 tables leaves you wide open for taking normal damage. A couple of points of mastery isn't going to make you any less spikey, and what it is going to do is make you take significantly more damage.
    Vanilla WoW was a diamond in the rough. Burning Crusade cleared the rough away and polished that diamond up. During Lich King, that diamond cracked from being over polished and in Cataclysm that diamond was replaced with a cubic zirconia.


  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeleena View Post
    Outside of Shield Block, Mastery has no more value than dodge/parry as mitigation because rolling on 2 tables leaves you wide open for taking normal damage. A couple of points of mastery isn't going to make you any less spikey, and what it is going to do is make you take significantly more damage.
    But surely that's exactly the point of a Hit/expertise build? You are generating enough rage to maintain an incredibly high Shield Block uptime. By doing so AND prioritising Mastery, you ensure that a much higher percentage of your blocks are criticals than not. The added consequence being an Enrage state, generating yet more rage.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Viperslayer View Post
    But surely that's exactly the point of a Hit/expertise build? You are generating enough rage to maintain an incredibly high Shield Block uptime. By doing so AND prioritising Mastery, you ensure that a much higher percentage of your blocks are criticals than not. The added consequence being an Enrage state, generating yet more rage.
    Not to mention those times when you just don't avoid due to RNG. 1-2% extra avoidance does nothing to help you that you'll ever notice, but when it goes to the second roll and you have shield block up a higher, not subject to DR chance to crit block makes my pillow feel much softer at night.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Viperslayer View Post
    But surely that's exactly the point of a Hit/expertise build? You are generating enough rage to maintain an incredibly high Shield Block uptime. By doing so AND prioritising Mastery, you ensure that a much higher percentage of your blocks are criticals than not. The added consequence being an Enrage state, generating yet more rage.
    Without a single point of mastery you already have 71% Enrage uptime. Once you reach the hit/expertise soft caps and can keep Shield Block up all the time the choice comes down to, do I want to avoid slightly more damage all the time or mitigate slightly more damage when Shield Block is on CD and according to Sacred Duty, you're supposed to reforge to Expertise Hard Cap, so in reality, you're going to have such miniscule amounts of itemization left over that the entire conversation is almost pointless.

    Even outside of Shield Block, the average damage avoided by Dodge/Parry is going to be higher than the average damage mitigated by Mastery.

    Quote Originally Posted by idefiler6 View Post
    Not to mention those times when you just don't avoid due to RNG. 1-2% extra avoidance does nothing to help you that you'll ever notice, but when it goes to the second roll and you have shield block up a higher, not subject to DR chance to crit block makes my pillow feel much softer at night.
    Block and by extension Crit Block is subject to DR. Block is on higher DR than Parry.
    Last edited by Kaeleena; 2012-10-03 at 03:43 PM.
    Vanilla WoW was a diamond in the rough. Burning Crusade cleared the rough away and polished that diamond up. During Lich King, that diamond cracked from being over polished and in Cataclysm that diamond was replaced with a cubic zirconia.


  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeleena View Post
    I am most certainly not trolling. Mastery is now just slightly better than Block Rating was during TBC.
    Of course - why don't you discuss your theorycrafting with Theck or Simcraft contributors please? :-)

    Mastery is your best thing for reducing damage intake - by increasing the number of critical blocks you go from 31% damage reduction to 62% which is nothing to be looked down on... you bleed excess rage during SBlock downtime into SBarr thus smoothing the damage intake without guaranteed blocks...

    However - you do need some stamina gems - challenge modes (and I bet that heroic raids too) hurt - there has to be a buffer for healers to be able to react...

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeleena View Post
    Without a single point of mastery you already have 71% Enrage uptime. Once you reach the hit/expertise soft caps and can keep Shield Block up all the time the choice comes down to, do I want to avoid slightly more damage all the time or mitigate slightly more damage when Shield Block is on CD and according to Sacred Duty, you're supposed to reforge to Expertise Hard Cap, so in reality, you're going to have such miniscule amounts of itemization left over that the entire conversation is almost pointless.

    Even outside of Shield Block, the average damage avoided by Dodge/Parry is going to be higher than the average damage mitigated by Mastery.



    Block and by extension Crit Block is subject to DR. Block is on higher DR than Parry.
    NOT WITH SHIELD BLOCK UP, READ THE POST.


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  16. #36
    The Lightbringer Amulree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeleena View Post
    Outside of Shield Block, Mastery has no more value than dodge/parry as mitigation because rolling on 2 tables leaves you wide open for taking normal damage. A couple of points of mastery isn't going to make you any less spikey, and what it is going to do is make you take significantly more damage.
    Okay, fine. Just keep ignoring the evidence that proves you entirely wrong, and keep repeating what I've already corrected you on several times.

    OP (or anyone else) - just ignore Kaeleena from here on out.

  17. #37
    lawl the discussion >.< You want mastery so that when you actually pop S-block it will mitigate some freaking dmg. GLHF trying to stand there with no mastery, trying to be a dk , and get insta gibbed because you are out of proper DR-cds. Get hit / exp capped - Pure mastery and spit on parry / dodge, nothing you can ever rely on. Active mitigation tank says WADDUP.

  18. #38
    Herald of the Titans xebtria's Avatar
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    since no page (neither wowhead nor askmrrobot) provided me some ratings I could choose gear from, I just made up my own and put them into askmrrobot. Running well so far.

    I use the following:
    Mastery 2
    Expertise 1.5 (after softcap 0.3)
    Hit 1.49 (for not screwing with me and telling me to reforge different everytime :P )
    Parry 0.9 (higher than dodge because of the hold the line glyph)
    Dodge 0.85 (for not priorizing mastery + crit/haste over dodge+hit/exp items for example. happen often otherwise)
    stamina + strength 0.8 (for not telling me, items with spirit + mastery are great tanking items. had that a couple of times, then decided to add these as weights)

    running very well so far. Healers complain already that it is boring healing me. I definitely recognize when I do not press my buttons right, because then I get smashed pretty hard in my face. but when I press them right, I very rarely fall below 70%. sounds like active mitigation works out pretty good.

    that being said, it's been still only heroic 5men and one world boss so far. starting raiding on sunday, but looking forward to it.

  19. #39
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    FWIW I've been having some good success in heroics (raiding in a week or so) by focusing on Hit/Exp (not exactly capped, but close, like 6% or more) and then on Mastery. I'm being lazy though and haven't gemmed some pieces yet. After each run I ask my healer if they thought I was squishy as I'm testing out an unfamiliar reforging strategy (i.e. Hit/Exp) and all of them have said they had no unusual problems.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...hackbar/simple to see what I'm doing.
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  20. #40
    My advice is if you don't want to do a lot of math or run simulations, armory a protection warrior in a top 25 guild and see what he's doing. Chances are if he's in that guild he's done his research already so you don't have to.

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