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  1. #1

    Prot warrior gemming/reforgeing?

    Howdy all,

    As the title says what is prot warrios gemming/reforgeing to in Mop?



    Any help is greatly appreciated =)

  2. #2
    I'm gemming Stam, reforging to hit/expertise softcap, and then balancing parry/dodge to avoid diminishing returns. Mastery is trash now.
    Vanilla WoW was a diamond in the rough. Burning Crusade cleared the rough away and polished that diamond up. During Lich King, that diamond cracked from being over polished and in Cataclysm that diamond was replaced with a cubic zirconia.


  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeleena View Post
    I'm gemming Stam, reforging to hit/expertise softcap, and then balancing parry/dodge to avoid diminishing returns. Mastery is trash now.
    This guy is trolling you bad, Mastery is your main stat and completely crucial. Then you go for parry rating. Do not gem for stamina unless you have extremely bad gear.

    You can check out sites likes Icyveins and Noxxic for details and info. This for example, is from Noxxic;
    "Stamina > Mastery > Parry > Dodge > Melee Hit (7.5%) > Expertise (7.5%) > Haste"

    This is what Icyveins.com says;
    "1. Stamina (until you have enough, see below);
    2. Mastery Rating;
    3. Parry Rating and Dodge Rating (there is an important distinction here, see below);
    4. Hit Rating and Expertise Rating."
    Last edited by CptEgo; 2012-10-03 at 10:56 AM.

  4. #4
    I wish people didn't use trolling in any context they please.

    Personally I'm riding stamina > Hit/exp (not reforging into it, but would take a piece with parry/hit over parry/mastery) > parry==dodge==mastery as the main stat, with shield barrier and it's scaling from vengeance the ability to control your own damage taken is far better than gemming defensive stats. Haven't read up on what sims, or spreadsheets are showing as last I looked shield barrier wasn't properly accounted for.
    Last edited by Flawless101; 2012-10-03 at 11:40 AM. Reason: clarification

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by CapM View Post
    This guy is trolling you bad, Mastery is your main stat and completely crucial. Then you go for parry rating. Do not gem for stamina unless you have extremely bad gear.

    You can check out sites likes Icyveins and Noxxic for details and info. This for example, is from Noxxic;
    "Stamina > Mastery > Parry > Dodge > Melee Hit (7.5%) > Expertise (7.5%) > Haste"

    This is what Icyveins.com says;
    "1. Stamina (until you have enough, see below);
    2. Mastery Rating;
    3. Parry Rating and Dodge Rating (there is an important distinction here, see below);
    4. Hit Rating and Expertise Rating."
    Block is on a second roll now and it's impossible to get CTC capped outside of Shield Block. Hit/Expertise softcap will be effectively keep SB up for 54 seconds out of the first 60 seconds of every fight and 48 seconds out of every 60 seconds every following minute. Mastery also DRs now after 50% requiring as much rating go from 50-51% block as it takes to go from 0-2%, doubling the rating required. With Shield Block at 90% uptime for the first minute and 80% for all following minutes, it also reduces the effectiveness of Mastery by 45% and 40% respectively.

    I am most certainly not trolling. Mastery is now just slightly better than Block Rating was during TBC.
    Last edited by Kaeleena; 2012-10-03 at 11:51 AM.
    Vanilla WoW was a diamond in the rough. Burning Crusade cleared the rough away and polished that diamond up. During Lich King, that diamond cracked from being over polished and in Cataclysm that diamond was replaced with a cubic zirconia.


  6. #6
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    I'm doing what I did in Cata, but giving Parry preference over Dodge instead of whichever is higher (which would almost always be parry).

    Something like Mastery > Parry > Hit = Expertise > Dodge

    In general what I'm doing is this:

    If Hit/Mastery: Hit -> Parry
    If Hit/Parry: Hit -> Mastery
    If Hit/Dodge: Dodge -> Mastery
    If Exp/Mastery: Exp -> Parry
    If Exp/Parry: Exp -> Mastery
    If Exp/Dodge: Dodge -> Mastery
    If Dodge/Mastery: Dodge -> Parry
    If Dodge/Parry: Dodge -> Mastery

    To me at least the idea seems to be that Agi tanks go for Dodge > Parry, while Str tanks go for Parry > Dodge, so I'm running with that unless there's actual proof that Dodge is useful. I'm not sure how to gem right now, I'm thinking going for mastery or mastery hybrids. I've been fairly unlucky with RNG running heroics, so the few pieces I have gotten are the "threat" versions (i.e. the ones with Hit/Expertise and one of Dodge/Parry/Mastery, as opposed to the avoidance once with Parry/Dodge and mastery).
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2012-10-03 at 11:53 AM.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeleena View Post
    Block is on a second roll now and it's impossible to get CTC capped outside of Shield Block. Hit/Expertise softcap will be effectively keep SB up for 54 seconds out of the first 60 seconds of every fight and 48 seconds out of every 60 seconds every following minute. Mastery also DRs now after 50% requiring as much rating go from 50-51% block as it takes to go from 0-2%, doubling the rating required. With Shield Block at 90% uptime for the first minute and 80% for all following minutes, it also reduces the effectiveness of Mastery by 45% and 40% respectively.

    I am most certainly not trolling. Mastery is now just slightly better than Block Rating was during TBC.
    So wrong. Mastery increases crit block, so if you keep shield block up you gain more double damage reduction from it the more mastery you have. Please do more reading before you spread bad misinformation like this.

  8. #8
    Critical block is hardly an insane amount of reduction giving the combat tables you pass to get to it.

  9. #9
    if you dont take mastery and dont use sblock, you dont get critical block and dont get enrage buff and 10 extra rage, so u dont can use your defense ability that, often, simply as that, therefore mastery/sblock > all.

    you dont have to read crappy guides like icyveins or noxxic, just read your tooltip....

    and this is the correct stat priority: mastery > hit (cap) = expertise (softcap) > stam > parry+dodge > str > crit > haste

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Flawless101 View Post
    Critical block is hardly an insane amount of reduction giving the combat tables you pass to get to it.
    ~3% avoidance totally insane bro.

  11. #11
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by tzui View Post
    if you dont take mastery and dont use sblock, you dont get critical block and dont get enrage buff and 10 extra rage, so u dont can use your defense ability that, often, simply as that, therefore mastery/sblock > all.

    you dont have to read crappy guides like icyveins or noxxic, just read your tooltip....

    and this is the correct stat priority: mastery > hit (cap) = expertise (softcap) > stam > parry+dodge > str > crit > haste
    Yes ... no.
    It's not as cut and dried, you have to prove first that the dps and rage you lose from missing is less than the rage and damage you gain from enrage.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by tzui View Post
    if you dont take mastery and dont use sblock, you dont get critical block and dont get enrage buff and 10 extra rage, so u dont can use your defense ability that, often, simply as that, therefore mastery/sblock > all.

    you dont have to read crappy guides like icyveins or noxxic, just read your tooltip....

    and this is the correct stat priority: mastery > hit (cap) = expertise (softcap) > stam > parry+dodge > str > crit > haste
    Even with base mastery, you already have a 20% chance to proc enrage with a 6 second duration, for the time that enrage falls off, you also have Berserker Rage which by default automatically gives you 20% uptime on enrage assuming you never get a critical block ever.

    Also, enrage has nothing to do with your mitigation or your survivability. You already have 90% and 80% CTC coverage without a single point of Mastery being factored in. After the you calculate the DR and mitigation conferred from SB by itself, Mastery's effectiveness falls beneath dodge and parry.
    Vanilla WoW was a diamond in the rough. Burning Crusade cleared the rough away and polished that diamond up. During Lich King, that diamond cracked from being over polished and in Cataclysm that diamond was replaced with a cubic zirconia.


  13. #13
    The Lightbringer The Caretaker's Avatar
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    It's a shame that people don't read the Protection warrior guide already posted, then start arguments about how "right" their opinion is.

    Look, the work has been done by Theck's simulators over at Sacred Duty and it appears that there are two main ways of gearing and playing your tank.

    If you want higher total damage reduction (TDR) over the course of a fight, you gear for dodge and parry and you prioritise Shield Barrier. This is because Critical Blocks happen very rarely outside of Shield Block, making the value of mastery fall away quite dramatically. Unfortunately, however, you will be spiky because a lot of blows will either be avoided/fully absorbed, or not avoided/absorbed at all.

    If, however, you’re more interested in smoother damage intake, then you want to prioritise hit and expertise to 7.5%, then go for mastery. With this build, you prioritise Shield Block and bleed off any excess rage (approaching 100/120 and Shield Block on cooldown) with barriers. This, however, will likely see you take more overall damage throughout the fight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by idefiler6 View Post
    ~3% avoidance totally insane bro.
    I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. Although would love to see were you pulled that % from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine View Post
    It's a shame that people don't read the Protection warrior guide already posted, then start arguments about how "right" their opinion is.

    Look, the work has been done by Theck's simulators over at Sacred Duty and it appears that there are two main ways of gearing and playing your tank.

    If you want higher total damage reduction (TDR) over the course of a fight, you gear for dodge and parry and you prioritise Shield Barrier. This is because Critical Blocks happen very rarely outside of Shield Block, making the value of mastery fall away quite dramatically. Unfortunately, however, you will be spiky because a lot of blows will either be avoided/fully absorbed, or not avoided/absorbed at all.

    If, however, you’re more interested in smoother damage intake, then you want to prioritise hit and expertise to 7.5%, then go for mastery. With this build, you prioritise Shield Block and bleed off any excess rage (approaching 100/120 and Shield Block on cooldown) with barriers. This, however, will likely see you take more overall damage throughout the fight.
    Last I looked the simulations were still being tweaked, and not to mention I often felt that a proactive model for avoiding damage fell more to the person between the keyboard and seat. Obviously it's good to min/max, but human error will more than often lead to increased damage.
    Last edited by Flawless101; 2012-10-03 at 12:53 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Flawless101 View Post
    I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. Although would love to see were you pulled that % from.
    Screenshot your character screen, then reforge some hit and exp and you'll see exactly how much you lose. Better yet save the 200g and chardev it. The difference in avoidance is miniscule and you WON'T notice it on a single target or an aoe pull. Theck's math about TDR is correct, but it's still spiky, unpredictable melee damage you'd be taking instead of smoothing out your damage absorption via shield block/barrier. These concepts aren't new, they've evolved over the years but the basic principle has been the same, especially since avoidance is on a fairly steep DR. And the "~" when used in this context means "circa" or "roughly".

    Never mind, I did it for you.

    Example A, emphasis on mastery/expertise: http://i.imgur.com/TCKyc.jpg
    Example B, emphasis on TDR: http://i.imgur.com/Kda8p.jpg

    About 1% difference in avoidance, and I lost 4% expertise. I think I'm sticking with my way for melee bosses.
    Last edited by idefiler6; 2012-10-03 at 12:57 PM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine View Post
    It's a shame that people don't read the Protection warrior guide already posted, then start arguments about how "right" their opinion is.

    Look, the work has been done by Theck's simulators over at Sacred Duty and it appears that there are two main ways of gearing and playing your tank.

    If you want higher total damage reduction (TDR) over the course of a fight, you gear for dodge and parry and you prioritise Shield Barrier. This is because Critical Blocks happen very rarely outside of Shield Block, making the value of mastery fall away quite dramatically. Unfortunately, however, you will be spiky because a lot of blows will either be avoided/fully absorbed, or not avoided/absorbed at all.

    If, however, you’re more interested in smoother damage intake, then you want to prioritise hit and expertise to 7.5%, then go for mastery. With this build, you prioritise Shield Block and bleed off any excess rage (approaching 100/120 and Shield Block on cooldown) with barriers. This, however, will likely see you take more overall damage throughout the fight.
    Why in your right mind would you prioritize Mastery over dodge and parry when you've already reduced Mastery's effectiveness by 90-95% simply by keeping Shield Block on cooldown?

    Looks like a huge waste of itemization to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by idefiler6 View Post
    Screenshot your character screen, then reforge some hit and exp and you'll see exactly how much you lose. Better yet save the 200g and chardev it. The difference in avoidance is miniscule and you WON'T notice it on a single target or an aoe pull. Theck's math about TDR is correct, but it's still spiky, unpredictable melee damage you'd be taking instead of smoothing out your damage absorption via shield block/barrier. These concepts aren't new, they've evolved over the years but the basic principle has been the same, especially since avoidance is on a fairly steep DR.
    Avoidance has never been on a steep enough DR that Mastery was 10-20 times more effective than it.
    Last edited by Kaeleena; 2012-10-03 at 12:54 PM.
    Vanilla WoW was a diamond in the rough. Burning Crusade cleared the rough away and polished that diamond up. During Lich King, that diamond cracked from being over polished and in Cataclysm that diamond was replaced with a cubic zirconia.


  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeleena View Post
    Why in your right mind would you prioritize Mastery over dodge and parry when you've already reduced Mastery's effectiveness by 90-95% simply by keeping Shield Block on cooldown?

    Looks like a huge waste of itemization to me.
    What? How does that reduce it's effectiveness? Block is on a DR so stacking mastery for anything other than shield block is retarded.



    Avoidance has never been on a steep enough DR that Mastery was 10-20 times more effective than it.
    10-20 times?

  18. #18
    The Lightbringer The Caretaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flawless101 View Post
    Last I looked the simulations were still being tweaked, and not to mention I often felt that a proactive model for avoiding damage fell more to the person between the keyboard and seat. Obviously it's good to min/max, but human error will more than often lead to increased damage.
    His simulators are pretty accurate now, but the idea is to go for 100% Shield Block uptime and bleed off extra rage with barriers. Yes, it's more active than passive and human error will come into it; but if you're practically always prioritizing blocks, it's hard to muck it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeleena View Post
    Why in your right mind would you prioritize Mastery over dodge and parry when you've already reduced Mastery's effectiveness by 90-95% simply by keeping Shield Block on cooldown?

    Looks like a huge waste of itemization to me.
    It looks like a waste because you don't understand the way mastery works.

    The value of it in a hit/expertise build isn't in CTC which is achieved by Shield Block, it's in Critical Block which takes a massive leap the more uptime you have on Shield Block. Look at it like this:

    1) Hit and expertise caps make rage flow heavily.
    2) This allows for 100% uptime on Shield Block, plus more rage besides.
    3) If you do not avoid an attack you WILL block it, turning full hits into chances for a Critical Block or a Revenge proc (more rage).
    4) The more mastery you have, the higher the chance you will critically block.
    5) Critical blocks double the value of a normal block, while also providing an Enrage.
    6) An Enrage gives you another 10 rage, meaning you can keep Shield Block up easier.
    7) If you're close to capping and Shield Block is on cooldown, you "bleed" the rage with a full-strength barrier.

    I've no idea where you're pulling your CTC numbers from, but I can only imagine the sun doesn't shine where you're getting them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  19. #19
    Ah, he was talking about CTC. There's your problem...

  20. #20
    Critical Block is on DR now just like Block and Dodge and Parry. The moment you equip your shield, Critical Block is already on 33% DR.
    Vanilla WoW was a diamond in the rough. Burning Crusade cleared the rough away and polished that diamond up. During Lich King, that diamond cracked from being over polished and in Cataclysm that diamond was replaced with a cubic zirconia.


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