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  1. #81
    Dreadlord Kyuubi87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClimacticGaming View Post
    Ah ok...that seems like a lot of timing and stuff cause who knows when the tank will pull...by the time we all know he does a 5 second countdown so yeah...I'll give it a shot.
    Communicate with your tank/tanks - we have a 10 second countdown in our raids that pop up with raid warnings and all. It's not a hassle to keep up the Chi as you make it sound like

  2. #82
    Field Marshal ClimacticGaming's Avatar
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    It may not be lol...but we are talking about a difference from just using expel harm right as the fight begins...which is what I said...to your suggestion of: enter combat, use expel harm, wait the 15, RL calls countdown...hit expel harm again (you may or may not get 4 chi, may end up with 3 chi)...then you gota get to the fight and use it. I'm just saying it seems a bit iffy for 1 extra chi...maybe 2...

    But then again...thats my opinion lol. If it works for you, great. I said I will try. 15 seconds for the cooldown to go off and chi still remaining seems like a stretch. We'll see.

  3. #83
    Dreadlord Kyuubi87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClimacticGaming View Post
    It may not be lol...but we are talking about a difference from just using expel harm right as the fight begins...which is what I said...to your suggestion of: enter combat, use expel harm, wait the 15, RL calls countdown...hit expel harm again (you may or may not get 4 chi, may end up with 3 chi)...then you gota get to the fight and use it. I'm just saying it seems a bit iffy for 1 extra chi...maybe 2...

    But then again...thats my opinion lol. If it works for you, great. I said I will try. 15 seconds for the cooldown to go off and chi still remaining seems like a stretch. We'll see.
    Well that's calling it a bit close, considering you ideally want to have full Chi and max energy as you get up to the boss. You need to build up with Expel Harm in advance, not as you enter combat. As I said though, it works for me and its really up to you to time/communicate with your fellow raiders. I managed to World Rank 3rd on Gara'jal the Spiritbinder 25N the other day so I must be doing something right as I've ranked on other fights as well

    http://rikudou-wow.blogspot.co.uk/20...inder-25n.html
    Last edited by Kyuubi87; 2012-10-13 at 02:50 PM.

  4. #84
    Just keep using expel harm until you enter combat, you'll have more than 0 chi regardless, so it's a small win. Same as doing this and burning the chi through chi burst or similar to build TEB stacks that you can pop just before entering combat. You'd need an age for this though.

    That's talking marginal gains though. If you want to improve drastically, you have to maintain all buffs/debuffs, control your resources well and not waste anything. The rest is icing on the cake.

  5. #85
    Dreadlord Kyuubi87's Avatar
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    Every little bit helps tho Daine

  6. #86
    Don't get me wrong, it's great advice, all I'm saying is if you don't have the fundamentals down right, all the extra little tips in the world won't make you top DPS/rank.

  7. #87
    Dreadlord Kyuubi87's Avatar
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    Yeah your very right there. The Windwalker Monk is a great class to play, but its easily played wrong.

  8. #88
    Field Marshal ClimacticGaming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuubi87 View Post
    Yeah your very right there. The Windwalker Monk is a great class to play, but its easily played wrong.
    As are many other classes. Back to topic:

    Anyone else raiding this weekend? We're going back in on Sunday night.

    Also, for those that were helping me, please look back on page 4 for some updates from me. The thread got slightly side tracked since then.

  9. #89
    Sunday for cleanup. We decided to not spend much time on Garajal H since the fights mostly the same, just tuned higher it seems.
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  10. #90
    Dreadlord Kyuubi87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClimacticGaming View Post
    As are many other classes. Back to topic:

    Anyone else raiding this weekend? We're going back in on Sunday night.

    Also, for those that were helping me, please look back on page 4 for some updates from me. The thread got slightly side tracked since then.
    Wouldn't say side tracked as stacking Chi for the start of fights helps with DPS as well.

  11. #91
    i rerolled dk to ww monk and i'm raiding in a world top50 10man guild.

    I'm happy about the mobility of the monk and i like most of the mechanics. I'm disappointed about tier1 encounter design (especially the first boss in hc) and meele dps in general, though monk seems to be at the back end of meeles for single target damage at least in 10man. Judging from wol top40 comparision, simcraft and my personal experience. Blizzard said meele should do more damage than ranged, as they have to move a lot and can't be on the boss all the time, but at the moment every ranged is eating meeles on most encounters as we have to move a lot but don't do more dps (actually less) if we can stick on targets.

    What disappoints me the most, is the current design of Fists of Fury, so even though I don't think it will change anything i posted this on the eu forums. The response to the topic was even worse than expected. (15 views and 1 reply in a day)

    So would love your feedback on it:

    I usually don't post on the forums at all about balance issues as i think EU forum posts won't reach the developers/designers anyway, but I'm so disappointed in the current Windwalker PvE design that I just have to post about it.

    Most of the issues I have with the current design and gameplay could be fixed or drastically improved by changing the Fists of Fury ability (and it's glyph).

    What's the current situation?

    Fists of Fury is a good scaling medium cooldown (25 second / 20sec with 4pc t14) damaging ability that needs to be channeled for 4sec (-haste). It does damage and stun as a cone attack in the direction the caster is facing. It spreads it's damage among all targets hit.
    It's currently the most effective damage per chi ability windwalker monks have, if we do not waste energy while channeling or cancel it too early. It's slightly followed by Rising Sun Kick.

    At first glance, this sounds pretty good and the single target dps of the spell is okay, but there come several gameplay relevant issues:

    1. You can't move while channeling this ability and canceling it early will result in an dps loss compared to using Blackout Kick.

    2. Your chi generators provide 2 chi per use. So the 3 Chi cost is really a pain in the ass!

    3. The damage is divided among all targets hit. This is just bad, because ww monks have no native ability as an aoe chi dump, just the Heal/Damage talents in 2nd row and their single target spells for keeping tiger palm and rising sun kick buffs up while aoe'ing. Quoting Blizzard about the hunter's Volley ability "Was volley fun?". Blizzard it's no fun using single target spells in an aoe situation and just hitting Spinning Crane Kick. Chi is supposed to be our main source of damage not energy!

    4. The glyph "Fists of Fury" is one of the most useless glyphs I've ever seen, in my humble opinion. It provides a 100% parry buff while channeling Fists of Fury. At first glance this seems great, but in which situation can we actually use this? You can only parry meele attacks done to you from the front, but while channeling Fists of Fury you stun everyone in front of you! So this glyph can actually just work in situations where something is attacking you from the front and is stun immune at the same time.

    These are my 4 main concerns about the current Fists of Fury design and I think they could be easily changed without beeing overpowered in PvE or PvP and improve the windwalker monks gameplay feeling in more than one way.

    Here are my suggestions to achieve that:

    a)
    Change the glyph. New glyph: "You can walk while channeling Fists of Fury, but Fists of Fury can no longer stun targets."

    Would greatly improve gameplay experience and could avoid canceling this spell in most cases, e.g. beeing able to dps boss with fof while moving out of a void zone. By removing the stun feature, it would balance the PvP factor and give players a nice tradeof.

    b)
    Reduce the Chi cost to 2. While I already admit the ability is our most effective chi dump if we can use it full time and without wasting energy, it has a rather high cooldown for a chi dump and is just slightly better. On top of that monk could use a minor dps buff as most other meeles provide more usability and outdps the monk at the moment. (personal experience, world of logs rankings and simcraft results as source for this statement).

    c)
    Make it a cleave ability. It would be to strong if it hits all target like an aoe ability, but hitting 3 targets at full damage and then scale it down(split the damage among targets), would be a fine way to give windwalker monks an ability to cleave and have an usefull AoE chi dump. This ability has still a rather high cooldown for AoE situation and it would give the ww monk at least a little cleave (like rogues bladeflurry, frost dks howling blast or warriors cleave).

    I would love to see any of these changes go live.

  12. #92

  13. #93
    Field Marshal ClimacticGaming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuubi87 View Post
    Wouldn't say side tracked as stacking Chi for the start of fights helps with DPS as well.
    I swear dude everytime I or anyone makes a post you say something..lol..jeeze.

    I said slightly side tracked, not completely..we're done talking about that.

    Please don't mess this thread up.

  14. #94
    This post has been an interesting read, but there was thing that bothered me about what Byronyk stated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Byronyk View Post
    Windwalkers have a lot of design flaws that I feel need addressing. Our expensive interrupt without a glyph option, FoF root for a mobility designed class/spec, and lack of raid utility are critical,
    It's good to state your opinion on it, but they've already answered 2 of these concerns: http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...-Developer-Q-A
    "Mobile" doesn't mean "never, ever stops moving." Like many specs, Windwalkers will do more damage when stationary but can still do some damage when moving. Deciding when you should FoF and when you can't is one of the decision points that separates good monks from great ones. We're not inclined to change it at this time. As far as raid utility goes, we're really reluctant to hand more "must have" buffs. We don't want Windwalkers to be mandatory, especially for smaller, 10-player raid groups. If they are never taken at all, we'll take some kind of action, but I'd be very surprised if that's the case.
    I agree with what they stated about Fists of Fury, and am totally fine with it being stationary. Making a judgement call for when is the best time to use an ability is always good for any game like this, not just WoW. For the utility part, I agree with needing something more, but nothing along the lines of "OMG! We don't have a monk in the raid!", but something a little more substantial would be nice. And for Spear Hand Strike... I'm 2 ways about it. I'm certainly not going to complain about Blizzard lowering the cost but, at the same time I'm not too concerned about the cost, but that's just my take on the matter.
    Since when does anyone have a clue about what they want?

  15. #95
    Dreadlord Kyuubi87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClimacticGaming View Post
    I swear dude everytime I or anyone makes a post you say something..lol..jeeze.

    I said slightly side tracked, not completely..we're done talking about that.

    Please don't mess this thread up.
    Not a dude and I was trying to help you but you don't seem very appreciative. Windwalker Raiding Experience can cover a fair few 'topics' - building up Chi for maximising DPS can be one of them. Not to mention your kind of exaggerating - I haven't been that active in this thread.

    In the interest of carrying on the conversation, anyone else in this thread other than ClimacticGaming that isn't building up Chi pre-fight? If so could you post your log/s and thoughts on it please
    Last edited by Kyuubi87; 2012-10-13 at 11:01 PM.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuubi87 View Post
    Not a dude and I was trying to help you but you don't seem very appreciative. Windwalker Raiding Experience can cover a fair few 'topics' - building up Chi for maximising DPS can be one of them. Not to mention your kind of exaggerating - I haven't been that active in this thread.

    In the interest of carrying on the conversation, anyone else in this thread other than ClimacticGaming that isn't building up Chi pre-fight? If so could you post your log/s and thoughts on it please
    I have done it on most fights but I find spamming expel harm and spinning fire blossom activate windsong pre-combat. I haven't noticed other procs such as trinkets but I wonder if it messing with ICDs aka really worth it?

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascar View Post
    c)
    Make it a cleave ability. It would be to strong if it hits all target like an aoe ability, but hitting 3 targets at full damage and then scale it down(split the damage among targets), would be a fine way to give windwalker monks an ability to cleave and have an usefull AoE chi dump. This ability has still a rather high cooldown for AoE situation and it would give the ww monk at least a little cleave (like rogues bladeflurry, frost dks howling blast or warriors cleave).
    Thats the main thing I've been begging for if anything. That, or make BoKs ignite mechanic "splash" onto other targets. Preferably the FoF change.
    That would encourage us to use it more, especially on a high movement fight like Stoneguard for instance.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-14 at 05:30 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Faids View Post
    I have done it on most fights but I find spamming expel harm and spinning fire blossom activate windsong pre-combat. I haven't noticed other procs such as trinkets but I wonder if it messing with ICDs aka really worth it?
    If memory serves Windsong is off the ICD, or its at least low. I usually have all 3 versions rolling anyways.
    I haven't seen a trinket proc off of either though during the Expel/Lotus pre fight spam.
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  18. #98
    Fluffy Kitten Mihir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byronyk View Post
    It doesn't work for some abilities (including epicenter). It does work for the majority of abilities though. I mainly used it to help healers during periods of raid damage such as Wildfire Infusion during Feng the Accursed. Honestly, for the first 4 bosses, the vast majority of the damage is avoidable, but if you do take damage it will likely kill you. The Spirit Kings fight is the perfect example (Warlord Kinds Annihilate/Flanking Order).

    On the second spirit king you CAN use ToK on Sobotai Swiftfoots volley and on the third spirit king Zian of the Endless Shadow you CAN use ToK on Undying Shadows.

    I caution the use of ToK. It's damage is great, but I prefer it as a personal 'oh-shit' button to avoid damage. This will become even more important come hard modes. Also, I suggest using Defuse magic for Mogu'Shun. Using it to avoid magic damage during the Staff phase of Feng the Accursed or Shadow Blast/Charged Shadows (interruptable) on the last spirit king is great.
    It only works on Epicenter if you cast it before the epicenter starts. If you cast it after the first tick of epicenter it fades without absorbing any damage.

    Stuff i used Karma on:

    stone guard - none as i was offtanking

    feng - any of the big aoe things: epicenter (make sure to use it a few seconds before the cast or it wont do anything), arcane velocity and draw flame. On epicenter, it will break after a few ticks so make sure to move away quickly once that happens.

    garajal - voodoo doll. you'll have to get lucky with this, on many attempts i never got voodoo dolled and you miss out on a lot of free damage then. Can also use it when there's a lot of adds nuking the raid, as you're pretty much guaranteed to take some damage from them at that point

    spirit kings - qiang: use it when you will take 2 massive attacks in a row. meng: either on the mindcontrol, or when he's being a coward and has high insanity. subetai: the 3rd tick of the volley (make sure to not take all 3 ticks as it will kill you!). zian: nothing

    elegon - protector explosions. in phase 2, you can use it right before switching to the energy charge and assuming the raid kills the charges quickly enough it will reflect their explosions to the boss. In the last phase, just use it when your health starts dropping.

    will of the emperor - use during gas phase, as you shouldn't be taking damage from anything else.
    Last edited by Mihir; 2012-10-15 at 09:19 AM.

  19. #99
    The reason it seems to do nothing on Feng's epicenter is the hit debuff. While he channels it, you have -75% (?) hit, so your ToK will most likely miss.

  20. #100
    Fluffy Kitten Mihir's Avatar
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    Good point, hadn't actually considered that

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