Thread: Sims vs WoL DPS

  1. #1

    Sims vs WoL DPS

    According to Simcraft and the guides I've read on Icy-veins and Elitest Jerks, Frost should be the DPS spec of choice for DKs. But looking at World of Logs, the world top 5 and top 7 DPS on Elegon are Unholy DKs.

    worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-97jvw04y6jcbzrgh/sum/damageDone/?s=6243&e=6766#Анфара
    worldoflogs.com/reports/jaak35ittd40t4g1/sum/damageDone/?s=1095&e=1598#Гаргарот

    Why are there no Frost DKs in the world top 10 DPS list, but there are two Unholy DKs?
    Last edited by Snapss; 2012-10-07 at 07:04 AM.

  2. #2
    The spec that is best on patchwerk is not necessarily going to be the spec that is best on every relevant boss.

  3. #3
    The Lightbringer NatePsychotic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snapss View Post
    According to Simcraft and the guides I've read on Icy-veins and Elitest Jerks, Frost should be the DPS spec of choice for DKs. But looking at World of Logs, the world top 5 and top 7 DPS on Elegon are Unholy DKs.

    worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-97jvw04y6jcbzrgh/sum/damageDone/?s=6243&e=6766#Анфара
    worldoflogs.com/reports/jaak35ittd40t4g1/sum/damageDone/?s=1095&e=1598#Гаргарот

    Why are there no Frost DKs in the world top 10 DPS list, but there are two Unholy DKs?
    Maybe because there are players that are just that good with Unholy? It is possible, I'm Unholy myself and I blow every other spec out of the water.

  4. #4
    Because Sims =/= reality.

    Thats what people dont get. Sims aren't that accurate, especially not when you try to sim on a PATCHWERK fight, where you just stand behind the Boss and do your DPS perfectly fine. You cant use that Sim for a fight like Elegon, where you have quite a bit of movement and target switching.

  5. #5
    Unholy isnt as bad as most ppl think.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Darleth View Post
    Because Sims =/= reality.
    This a thousand times.

    Sims work out what the theoretical maximum is, when played well.

    A bosses mechanics are generally to do everything it can to prevent those perfect circumstances occurring.

  7. #7
    simcraft hasnt been right on any spec ive seen so far...its been close, but actual players are out performing simcraft everywhere ive seen.

  8. #8
    Because Unholy has a stronger execute phase and Elegon takes more damage during the execute phase?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    Because Unholy has a stronger execute phase and Elegon takes more damage during the execute phase?
    This. Also the fact that Unholy can leave their pet on the boss while they go out and reset their stacks.
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  10. #10
    The Patient Ganaza's Avatar
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    On beta DoT damage continued to tick once the sparks were dead, I'm not sure if this is still the case on live but if so that plays a very large part also.
    13/13HC

    #Acherus (storm.coldront.net) - Death Knight IRC

  11. #11
    Looking at the top for unholy and top for frost, I don't see unholy ahead at all. Frost ranges from 120-107 for top 40, Unholy starts at 130 and drops quickly down to 95 in their top 40.


    The rest of the fights are about the same results too, if not worse for Unholy.

  12. #12
    Moderator Fnx-'s Avatar
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    As some people already said, unholy isn't bad even tho it should be according to sims, witch once again prof the fact "Live > Sims"

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-07 at 10:46 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    Because Unholy has a stronger execute phase and Elegon takes more damage during the execute phase?
    And your dots stay on one the energy charge after they die, even as frost I was able to destroy everyone else in the raid on the energy charge meter.
    Logs are hidden
    Last edited by Fnx-; 2012-10-07 at 08:52 PM.

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  13. #13
    There's nothing wrong with sims. They're as accurate as you want to make them, and therein lies the issue: the user.

    The discrepancy here is from the fact that you're comparing the sim, evaluated at some default parameters, to another fight, which has very different parameters than those in the sim, but you're still using the sim data with the old parameters as if they're 100% valid in this new scenario.

    It shouldn't strike you odd one bit that the results aren't lining up. You aren't looking at the same parameters.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by SSHA778 View Post
    There's nothing wrong with sims. They're as accurate as you want to make them, and therein lies the issue: the user.

    The discrepancy here is from the fact that you're comparing the sim, evaluated at some default parameters, to another fight, which has very different parameters than those in the sim, but you're still using the sim data with the old parameters as if they're 100% valid in this new scenario.

    It shouldn't strike you odd one bit that the results aren't lining up. You aren't looking at the same parameters.
    So what would be a good sims profile for Elegon? Our guild is trying to min-max DPS to beat his enrage timer.

  15. #15
    Moderator Fnx-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snapss View Post
    So what would be a good sims profile for Elegon? Our guild is trying to min-max DPS to beat his enrage timer.
    How many debuff do you go for in each phase and is it 10 or 25man?

    Envy - Kazzak EU (www.envy.si)
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Snapss View Post
    So what would be a good sims profile for Elegon? Our guild is trying to min-max DPS to beat his enrage timer.
    There isn't much you can do with sims that is going to be useful here, there are too many different things the dps have to do.

    The key to getting a kill for my guild was killing five energy charges in both draw power phases, and also pushing the boss under 35% in the second draw power phase to get some of our dps into their execute ranges straight away for the last phase.

    You're going to have to figure out dps assignments for the charges and it may take some time, but the boss goes down so much faster when you start hitting 12 debuffs reliably.

    Also, dks chucking amz on the ranged+healers for the protector explosions is as amazing as ever.

  17. #17
    I done this fight as unholy and played really, REALLY bad. Still managed to get a rank 21 at the time of writing this, and no I didn't cheese by spreading diseases to sparks.
    I also didn't line procs up extremely well.

    Unholy is just incredible sub 35%, I keep on forgetting to use SR (think I started using it at 28%). I only managed to get about 6 casts in and it done 3.2mil~ damage. Your pet can also stay on the boss at times you need to run out etc, Gargoyle also scales well since it will be doing 100% extra damage to the boss (assuming you've killed 10 sparks in total).

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-jk...=18008&e=18548

  18. #18
    Mechagnome Italiandk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snapss View Post
    So what would be a good sims profile for Elegon? Our guild is trying to min-max DPS to beat his enrage timer.
    My two cents:
    - uninstal simcraft
    - check every dps gear
    - check how they do the fight
    - make your guess

    Sims are good only if you take them as sims, they are not meant to sim the reality.

  19. #19
    You could generate a simcraft profile to at least relatively closely approximate specific bosses, measuring how long the melee and ranged have uptime, how much movement, damage taken, immunity periods, etc, and actually I've always thought it would be awesome if someone (someone else) went to the trouble. So far no luck.

    But really once raidbots gets a decent sample size most of our questions will be answered. Of course it doesn't compensate for player bias (ie, frost mages are slightly low on patchwerk so nobody plays frost mages and they're #22 on the rankings) but it does show how players perform in the actual game.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiira View Post
    There isn't much you can do with sims that is going to be useful here, there are too many different things the dps have to do.
    Sure there is: superposition.

    It's not going to be a perfect representation of the fight, but good luck having something so custom-made per fight without knowing programming yourself. You know the general feel of every phase. So, sim each individual phase accordingly, making sure to keep buffs / rotations consistent with actuality (e.g. you can't Heroism every phase). With the overrides in SimulationCraft, you can force player movement every so often, and you should also be able to set target HP constraints. As for modeling charges, you'll probably have to drop over to the SimulationCraft IRC channel to see if that is possible.

    Attach a weight to each phase according to where your guild needs the best performance, and combine the results of each sim.

    That being said, you still won't be able to account for Unholy being able to leave its pet on the boss.

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