Guardian threat

**Mystile** · 2012-10-04, 02:38 AM

After raiding Mogu'shan Vaults last night I have to get others opinions. Do you feel that Guardian threat is not up to par?

With Berserk popped (or Incarnation, whichever I opt to use) I can keep up with our Protection Paladin, but his constant threat is just so much more than mine. It was only an issue during Feng. After epicenters when we would run back in, I would taunt (important: after epicenter, so it did not miss) and his auto attacks would rip threat, unless I got a lucky mangle >crit<, a miss/dodge/parry or a non-crit would not do.

Also, his aoe threat was significantly higher than mine (though that could have been tricks and MD being used on him.)

I feel like too much of our threat is dumped into mangle and not enough into lacerate and thrash's initial hit.

**Sarac** · 2012-10-04, 02:42 AM

Originally Posted by Mystile

After raiding Mogu'shan Vaults last night I have to get others opinions. Do you feel that Guardian threat is not up to par?

With Berserk popped (or Incarnation, whichever I opt to use) I can keep up with our Protection Paladin, but his constant threat is just so much more than mine. It was only an issue during Feng. After epicenters when we would run back in, I would taunt (important: after epicenter, so it did not miss) and his auto attacks would rip threat, unless I got a lucky mangle >crit<, a miss/dodge/parry or a non-crit would not do.

Also, his aoe threat was significantly higher than mine (though that could have been tricks and MD being used on him.)

I feel like too much of our threat is dumped into mangle and not enough into lacerate and thrash's initial hit.

That's because atm a paladin is what a tank is supposed to do, tanking insted of being a dps for 70%. I'd say paladin is in a perfect state atm and all other tanks should get their dmg nerved and threat increased to compensate for that.

I don't get why some retard at Blizz decided tanks should dps...our prot warrior was doing 50k dps on first boss Vaults...I'm sorry but that's more than some dps can do with all the moving around.

**Optysauce** · 2012-10-04, 04:47 AM

Absolutely not.. I'm 3/6 right right now for vaults and my threat is out of control, I never had a problem with our protection warrior taking threat off me.

**Magania** · 2012-10-04, 06:16 AM

You have to remember vengeance, seeing it will get pretty high, so if you don't have any vengeance at all he will of course have a lot more attack power, and therefor he will also take aggro just doing auto attack. A good idea is to let the tank who just tanked completely stop dps'ing so you can build up some vengeance.

**exochaft** · 2012-10-04, 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by Magania

You have to remember vengeance, seeing it will get pretty high, so if you don't have any vengeance at all he will of course have a lot more attack power, and therefor he will also take aggro just doing auto attack. A good idea is to let the tank who just tanked completely stop dps'ing so you can build up some vengeance.

Along the same lines, as I've seen some Guardian tanks do this, do NOT use Savage Defense immediately once you pick up the boss or on the pull if you have no Vengeance! You need that baseline Vengeance from getting hit once to ensure you keep threat, and getting hit once should not mean the end of the world by any means (especially if withholding SD still results in a few dodges immediately, rage used for something else).

From my personal experience, absolutely zero threat issues thus far. The irony with Guardian tanks is that the better we are with our 'active mitigation' cooldown usage (i.e., SD), the worse our Vengeance will be compared to other tanks. So naturally, while we're dodging attacks left and right, any other tank taking the hit and mitigating the damage is gaining more Vengeance. However, from my personal experience again, it would take my tanking partner being destroyed into the ground before threat became an issue. Just ensure you're communicating or anticipating tanking swaps since landing a huge threat ability at such an occasion is generally not appreciated by any tank.

**Elunedra** · 2012-10-04, 07:56 AM

dont forget you cna get treat tru symbiosis, like lighting shields & consecration

**vellar** · 2012-10-04, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by Mystile

After raiding Mogu'shan Vaults last night I have to get others opinions. Do you feel that Guardian threat is not up to par?

With Berserk popped (or Incarnation, whichever I opt to use) I can keep up with our Protection Paladin, but his constant threat is just so much more than mine. It was only an issue during Feng. After epicenters when we would run back in, I would taunt (important: after epicenter, so it did not miss) and his auto attacks would rip threat, unless I got a lucky mangle >crit<, a miss/dodge/parry or a non-crit would not do.

Also, his aoe threat was significantly higher than mine (though that could have been tricks and MD being used on him.)

I feel like too much of our threat is dumped into mangle and not enough into lacerate and thrash's initial hit.

Are you expertise capped and do you have enough hit rating? If not then that's the reason. If you are hit/expertise capped then who starts tanking first etc vengence is cruel and the tank who starts tanking (if it is that sort of encounter) usually gets way more threat than the taunting tank. If your capped and your both tanking at the same time or you start tanking then I'd recommend your raid leader actually get the group to help i.e. tricks, MD and get the pally to put hand of salvation on himself/herself. I always use salvation on tank swaps either on my self or the other tank depending on the situation.

**Drodoo** · 2012-10-04, 09:06 AM

I got no problem single target, but our blood DK is killing it in terms of AoE. I get agro the first 3 sec, then no way I'm gonna get it of him after that. DK AoE dmg is just insane tho.

**Banzhe** · 2012-10-04, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by Drodoo

I got no problem single target, but our blood DK is killing it in terms of AoE. I get agro the first 3 sec, then no way I'm gonna get it of him after that. DK AoE dmg is just insane tho.

You can't be even close to hit / exp cap then, both play a vital role in your ability to generate rage also which is your main source for survivability, so stacking crit / mastery is wrong on all fronts since that's what I'm assuming you are.

I'm tanking with both a warrior and paladin, and have no issue at all taking threat from either of them even when taunt switching.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...anzhe/advanced for stat reference to compare - Yes I know, Bs sockets are being implemented today

**valiorik** · 2012-10-04, 09:33 AM

I am raiding with DK. No problems with threat at all. Maybe worth to mention I am hit capped and have 7% exp. So far it is enjoyable bear ride.

**Rauros** · 2012-10-04, 09:35 AM

Raiding with a Death Knight, and I may as well afk trash, my sustained AoE is pretty good, but he gets all the initial aggro and therefore vengeance. Didn't mind doing 100k dps on the first boss, though.

**hexaq** · 2012-10-05, 05:43 AM

Originally Posted by Drodoo

I got no problem single target, but our blood DK is killing it in terms of AoE. I get agro the first 3 sec, then no way I'm gonna get it of him after that. DK AoE dmg is just insane tho.

Same thing here on the multi target mob threat, I charge in and get all the mobs on me for 2-3 secs, then the DK strolls along, drops some poop on the ground and makes a few moves ... next thing I know half my mobs are gone to him, 5 more seconds and he has solid threat on all the pack, and rocking at 100k Aoe dps on the meter.

In this time I keep thrash and swipe on cooldown...and watch my 60-100k aoe TPS match against DK 200k+ TPS on omen (I select various random mobs to check this..) ... It's a sad place to be in tbh...

And before somebody shoves "hit and exp caps" speach... well, the trash is lvl 90-91, I'm capped against them.

**Elunedra** · 2012-10-05, 06:55 AM

hmm i havent tanked in a riad ievironment yet, but lucky my guild only had DK's dpers not tanks

**valiorik** · 2012-10-05, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by hexaq

Same thing here on the multi target mob threat, I charge in and get all the mobs on me for 2-3 secs, then the DK strolls along, drops some poop on the ground and makes a few moves ... next thing I know half my mobs are gone to him, 5 more seconds and he has solid threat on all the pack, and rocking at 100k Aoe dps on the meter.

In this time I keep thrash and swipe on cooldown...and watch my 60-100k aoe TPS match against DK 200k+ TPS on omen (I select various random mobs to check this..) ... It's a sad place to be in tbh...

And before somebody shoves "hit and exp caps" speach... well, the trash is lvl 90-91, I'm capped against them.

Maybe your DK has dramatically better gear? Me and my partner are both 471 and 472. The one who hits mobs first has them all.
Reforging to hit and exp + small crit, gemming for stam + agi.

Anyway I wouldn't be to worried about trash. It's trash (!) after all and I am surprised you are recording performance on trash

**Elunedra** · 2012-10-05, 08:12 AM

it does matter if you have 2 tanks and 1 tank getting pounded by all trash while the other has argo on 0

**hexaq** · 2012-10-05, 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by valiorik

Maybe your DK has dramatically better gear?

463 geared, his is a bit lower by a few ilvls, but rather similar since we both ran HC's to get it.

Blizz did say they are a bit worried about bear aoe and have Hotfixed-increased thrash damage by 60%. From my experience it's still not enough to compete with similarly geared DK.

And yes, 1 tank getting beat on by all the mobs ain't good. He can't really stop dps eighter or the Active mitigation thingy goes to hell...

**valiorik** · 2012-10-05, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by hexaq

And yes, 1 tank getting beat on by all the mobs ain't good. He can't really stop dps eighter or the Active mitigation thingy goes to hell...

In situation like that I would switch to boomkin and lunch off to the Moon... show those worthless DPSers who's da boss in this sandbox!

**markos82** · 2012-10-05, 11:43 AM

Im about to start to raid on Sunday as guardian so can some1 please tell me any site that i can use to reforge to the best possible? i tanked during cata without problem so i dont think tanking would be an issue i justwant to know how to best utilize my gear.

Thanks

Sorry for posting this here.

**Elunedra** · 2012-10-05, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by markos82

Im about to start to raid on Sunday as guardian so can some1 please tell me any site that i can use to reforge to the best possible? i tanked during cata without problem so i dont think tanking would be an issue i justwant to know how to best utilize my gear.

Thanks

Sorry for posting this here.

have a look at the bear topic's gear section it explains what stats you need
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...Survival-Guide

tanking was chanced quite a bit since cata tho as not you have an "active migration model" for bears this means you end up spamming a button called savage defence

other then that first get hit / exp to get your RPS (rage per second up) then while you get better gear go for mastery / dododge / crit, while lowring your hit and exp as crit gives you more RPS

**Pikapika** · 2012-10-06, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by exochaft

Along the same lines, as I've seen some Guardian tanks do this, do NOT use Savage Defense immediately once you pick up the boss or on the pull if you have no Vengeance! You need that baseline Vengeance from getting hit once to ensure you keep threat, and getting hit once should not mean the end of the world by any means (especially if withholding SD still results in a few dodges immediately, rage used for something else).

From my personal experience, absolutely zero threat issues thus far. The irony with Guardian tanks is that the better we are with our 'active mitigation' cooldown usage (i.e., SD), the worse our Vengeance will be compared to other tanks. So naturally, while we're dodging attacks left and right, any other tank taking the hit and mitigating the damage is gaining more Vengeance. However, from my personal experience again, it would take my tanking partner being destroyed into the ground before threat became an issue. Just ensure you're communicating or anticipating tanking swaps since landing a huge threat ability at such an occasion is generally not appreciated by any tank.

Avoided hits still count for vengeance.
See http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...ysis/#post3701

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