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  1. #141
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vexies View Post
    I cringe when I see people say that SWTOR brought nothing new to the table when you have

    companions
    Not entirely original. This concept was already extensively utilized in LotRO with skirmishes. Adding a storyline and missions for them was a good thing, but they serve little other than autopilot for more difficult to solo mobs. The only difference they present to gameplay is that instead of taking things on one at a time, you get multiple packs through the entire game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vexies View Post
    fully voiced questing
    A great feature for an RPG that as time goes on stands to be a weight that holds you down. It's a toss up based on personal preference, but it's not exactly a 'new' idea either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vexies View Post
    personal story
    Narrative in an MMO is not unique. Did they make you feel *more* involved than other games? Possibly. Vanilla WoW had flavors of this sprinkled in with class quests and so on, LotRO has your character completely woven into the events of the books, etc. I would consider their use to be refinement of an already established principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vexies View Post
    These things where really brought to the fore front and done extremely well. Bioware deliverd anextremely fun questing experience.
    I can't argue with that.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Arlee View Post
    Why is it that people seem to think only things that matter at end game count? I see that often over and over. X doesn't matter because it wasn't useful at endgame. If you used something all throughout leveling doesn't that mean that this was useful?
    Sure it was useful, was being the operative word, if you have 10 features relevant while leveling but only 2 of them relevant when reaching max level the game will clearly be lacking. Personal story for example is great when you level but as the story ends when you reach max level it simply gives the feeling that the game lost something, one feature that is missing all of the sudden with nothing to take it's place.

    And lets fact it, most of your play time in a theme park MMO will be spent at max level so you could have all the features in the word available to you when leveling and the game would still suck if they all become irrelevant at max level.
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  3. #143
    Pandaren Monk WarpedAcorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Narrative in an MMO is not unique. Did they make you feel *more* involved than other games? Possibly. Vanilla WoW had flavors of this sprinkled in with class quests and so on, LotRO has your character completely woven into the events of the books, etc. I would consider their use to be refinement of an already established principle.
    The only thing from WoW (and I'm using this as a reference and not to start a Game vs. Game thread) was the Hunter Leaf Questline. It was a lot of fun, required practice and preperation, and most importantly forced you to use the skills related to your class. How many MMO games, if any, actually TEACH YOU how to play your class through the story? I can't think of any. But the Leaf quest forced you to learn skills essential to the class such as kiting, debuff managment, CC, and jump shots.

    SWTOR did succeed in making me care more about my characters due to the story. But I can understand how that is not something everything wants or even likes.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by WarpedAcorn View Post
    The only thing from WoW (and I'm using this as a reference and not to start a Game vs. Game thread) was the Hunter Leaf Questline. It was a lot of fun, required practice and preperation, and most importantly forced you to use the skills related to your class. How many MMO games, if any, actually TEACH YOU how to play your class through the story? I can't think of any. But the Leaf quest forced you to learn skills essential to the class such as kiting, debuff managment, CC, and jump shots.

    SWTOR did succeed in making me care more about my characters due to the story. But I can understand how that is not something everything wants or even likes.
    Ravenholdt was suppose to be the "leaf" line for rogues... But we weren't a priority.

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  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by WarpedAcorn View Post
    The only thing from WoW (and I'm using this as a reference and not to start a Game vs. Game thread) was the Hunter Leaf Questline. It was a lot of fun, required practice and preperation, and most importantly forced you to use the skills related to your class. How many MMO games, if any, actually TEACH YOU how to play your class through the story? I can't think of any. But the Leaf quest forced you to learn skills essential to the class such as kiting, debuff managment, CC, and jump shots.
    Off topic but man I miss that type of quests, it's one type of solo content that you could really tie end game gear progression to, if a developer would want to create non raiding end game, combined with solo or 2-3 man dungeons and the potentials are endless.
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  6. #146
    Bloodsail Admiral Mordin Solus's Avatar
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    i recall the druid chain quest to gain the forms and in tbc to get the flight one. one of the most fun times i had in wow since the beginning
    someone else might have gotten it wrong.

  7. #147
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarpedAcorn View Post
    The only thing from WoW (and I'm using this as a reference and not to start a Game vs. Game thread) was the Hunter Leaf Questline. It was a lot of fun, required practice and preperation, and most importantly forced you to use the skills related to your class. How many MMO games, if any, actually TEACH YOU how to play your class through the story? I can't think of any. But the Leaf quest forced you to learn skills essential to the class such as kiting, debuff managment, CC, and jump shots.
    1) There were class quests that rewarded unique items for every class in the mid 40-50 range. It's been so long I don't remember the specifics, but they all awarded unique items.

    2) Priests also got the benediction quest. Warlocks and Paladins had their amazing mount quests. There are several examples of this just in this one game. Druid flight form....etc. They don't do that anymore though.

    3) Kiting and jump shots were not essential to the class. In fact, it was designed to be accomplished by only the most skilled players...not teach ordinary people how to be super man. It was intended to be elite, not inclusive and instructional.


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  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    1) There were class quests that rewarded unique items for every class in the mid 40-50 range. It's been so long I don't remember the specifics, but they all awarded unique items.
    I get the feeling you are talking about the sunken temple "class quest".

    I'm not sure we can go so far as to compare that with leaf or beni.
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  9. #149
    Dreadlord Vexies's Avatar
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    Not entirely original.
    Im well aware that all of those features where used to some extent in one game or another but none have brought them together in such a way. Ware I feel SWTOR's innovation was brought forward was in delivering such a powerful story / questing experience in a MMO. Its highly subject to preference. You either like that in a MMO or you dont but what was presented has yet to be equaled or surpassed in any other title. Everyone is well aware of where the game made its mistakes but you cant at the same time not recognize it for what it truly excels at.

    After years of the dry bland wasteland of story that was the game that shall not be named SWTOR was very refreshing to me and its the one thing I miss most in other MMO's

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Arlee View Post
    Why is it that people seem to think only things that matter at end game count? I see that often over and over. X doesn't matter because it wasn't useful at endgame. If you used something all throughout leveling doesn't that mean that this was useful?
    It's not the ONLY thing that matters, but it's a huge important thing. Reason being, you spend the majority of your time at max level. Besides, you can only level so much. Eventually, it becomes impossible to level any more.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-11 at 02:22 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    2) Priests also got the benediction quest. Warlocks and Paladins had their amazing mount quests. There are several examples of this just in this one game. Druid flight form....etc. They don't do that anymore though.
    Warriors also got the codex book they could use at 54 to get some ability.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Vexies View Post
    After years of the dry bland wasteland of story that was the game that shall not be named SWTOR was very refreshing to me and its the one thing I miss most in other MMO's
    Off topic: What is with people and not wanting to say WoW, instead saying "the/that game that shall not be named". It was done the entire guild summit and it was the most ridiculous things I've ever seen/heard. By not naming it and giving it a specific title, you're actually giving it more "power" by making a deal out of it.

    On topic: The story is a nice change of pace. It's a shame that it's not a great method of longterm player retention since it's such a time heavy investment on the part of the development team and that it's an absolutely finite amount of content from the player side.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Arlee View Post
    Why is it that people seem to think only things that matter at end game count? I see that often over and over. X doesn't matter because it wasn't useful at endgame. If you used something all throughout leveling doesn't that mean that this was useful?
    Because all of your time is spent at endgame. Sure it was fun from 1-49, but if it's not needed at 50, it's no longer an incentive to keep playing, which is what an MMORPG should provide; incentives to keep playing.
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  13. #153
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusherO0 View Post
    Off topic: What is with people and not wanting to say WoW, instead saying "the/that game that shall not be named". It was done the entire guild summit and it was the most ridiculous things I've ever seen/heard. By not naming it and giving it a specific title, you're actually giving it more "power" by making a deal out of it.
    No offense, but drastic moderator freak out and also plenty of warranted moderator freak out in this thread and other game threads. Only because I have posted here about loving SWTOR so much am I even comfortable talking about WoW objectively when it relates to our current topic.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by vizzle View Post
    Because all of your time is spent at endgame. Sure it was fun from 1-49, but if it's not needed at 50, it's no longer an incentive to keep playing, which is what an MMORPG should provide; incentives to keep playing.

    It kinda depends what "endgame" is for you. I do spend time equipping my lvl 50's and stuff but the most time I spend playing alts.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Psychlon View Post
    It kinda depends what "endgame" is for you. I do spend time equipping my lvl 50's and stuff but the most time I spend playing alts.
    Then you aren't participating in "end game".

    And that's kind of the best idea with swtor (pre TFB. I haven't done that yet)
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  16. #156
    Pandaren Monk WarpedAcorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychlon View Post
    It kinda depends what "endgame" is for you. I do spend time equipping my lvl 50's and stuff but the most time I spend playing alts.
    That is where, I think, there was some disconnect with the average MMO player and the SWTOR staff. The SWTOR staff thought they had plenty of endgame because they had all these stories that they thought people would replay through. The unfortunate reality is that the average MMO player zipped through the story and had little to no intention of rolling alts. Instead their goal was to max out their single character.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by WarpedAcorn View Post
    That is where, I think, there was some disconnect with the average MMO player and the SWTOR staff. The SWTOR staff thought they had plenty of endgame because they had all these stories that they thought people would replay through. The unfortunate reality is that the average MMO player zipped through the story and had little to no intention of rolling alts. Instead their goal was to max out their single character.
    It didn't help that there were essentially two paths to experience the 8 stories in, Empire or Republic. The linear leveling throughout the game kinda discourages multiple playthroughs all non-story content (a whole helluva lot of it) remains static across each character.

    I'd LOVE to experience each individual story, but i know there's no way I'll be able to level up more than 1-2 characters on each faction before I get so fed up with leveling up through the same path that I just stop leveling up new characters.

    Between the stories and the Legacy system, it seems like they really wanted to push leveling up alts, they just don't have the leveling content to make that engaging for enough people IMO.

  18. #158
    Pandaren Monk WarpedAcorn's Avatar
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    I leveled 6.5/8 characters to max level. But I'm an anomolly and every single person that came over from my old WoW Guild (~30 people) leveled 1 character to max, and only played a little bit with alts before quitting.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by WarpedAcorn View Post
    I leveled 6.5/8 characters to max level. But I'm an anomolly and every single person that came over from my old WoW Guild (~30 people) leveled 1 character to max, and only played a little bit with alts before quitting.
    This bothers me.

    Why don't people play more than one character?

    I get that the planet quests can get tedious after the 5th character or so but just 1 character?

    People talk about swtor lacking "replayability" but the fact is when I think back to the countless hours I poured into games like BG1/2, IWD1/2, D1/2, ME1/2, WoW, Swtor, and (now that I got gw2 for free. I told you I would.) GW2... I never beat the game just once. I never just picked one class and was like "I AM GOING TO LIMIT MY EXPERIENCE OF THIS GAME THAT I PAID MONEY FOR AND ONLY PLAY ONE ASPECT!!! YEAH!!!". That just seems insane to me.

    Its like the people who refuse to play alliance or horde on principles they can't explain. Way to pay for half a game. And I do mean they can't explain them. Once I pressed a friend on it and he was literally like, "Well, the horde is just so much more like... I don't know. Just look at them. Its like... metal and shit. The alliance is all like elves. I mean, yeah we got them too but these are like drug addicts which is way cooler." I decided to never bring the topic up again after that.

    I really hope that the industry continues to focus on accounts rather than characters and continue to promote experiencing the whole game.

    PS: Love rifts account wide achievement system. Love gw2s account wide achievement system. Now if swtor could add a legacy codex... MMM.
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  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by WarpedAcorn View Post
    The unfortunate reality is that the average MMO player zipped through the story and had little to no intention of rolling alts. Instead their goal was to max out their single character.
    Got any - you know - facts to back that up? My anecdotal evidence is vastly different.

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