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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Thenoose View Post
    I could not disagree with that more. I enjoyed TOR completlely for what it was, a single player game. I probably will go on to enjoy it in the future, granted I haven't played in months.

    I always think back to pre-release when they enticed fans of KOTOR by saying: "TOR will be like KOTOR 3, 4, 5"
    Boy they weren't kidding.
    The problem - for many - is charging monthly for a "singleplayer MMORPG".

    If the initial prize was 60 dollars and the subscription was 15 dollars/month, people payed 240 dollars for the privilege of playing said game with the content of what, maybe 2 Kotors ? That would still be double the amount of cash you would usually need to fork over for 2 brand new AAA single player RPGs.

    Ok, maybe the content exceeds 2 Kotors, but it's still hefty.

    And don't forget the limitations an MMO has over a "true" single player RPG: The world can't really permanently change for everyone because of your decisions, your decisions in general are "smaller", combat is often "dumbed-down"/less strategic, things need to be balanced, so there is less of the "I'm a God and I'll smite you" entics that often happen at the end of RPGs (where you get the super powerful weapons/skills/spells) and that a lot of people enjoy, etc. . .

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Ateup View Post
    This isn't surprising at all but still kind of sad. I'm not sure why some people like to place all blame on EA. I'd agree that they seemed to have gave up support for the game prematurely. But the fact of the matter is they gave Bioware millions of dollars to produce TOR. And Bioware released broke world PvP that never got fixed. Bugs released with subsequent patches that never got fixed. Essential features that took some 6 months to release. And they still can't figure out how to put in chat bubbles as far as I know.
    Broke world pvp blah blah. Honestly I find this to be to their detriment. They tried to make a typical MMO encompassing all aspects of the cookie cutter model. They should have branched out later. The story is what they and it and it was great. You build PVE content around that, with light warzones for those who want it. They should have NEVER strived to make PVP one of the main facets of the game.

    As far as I know you cannot preview weapons still. That is horrendous to me. It's been a year. They could have kept a good segment of population with story driven content build on PVE. Instead the noise from the PVP community killed perception of the game. KILLED.

    I love PVP and am as skilled as much as the next PVPer, but TOR wasn't the place for open world PVP, it never was, and they should'nt have promised it. Ilum should not have been a PVP planet. The worlds are too heavily segmented to really allow for it.

    I had hope for the longest time they could build a brand with TOR to rival as an alternative to WoW in time. I've since given up that hope after F2P annoucements and now all the leavers. I've had an active sub since day 1 even if I haven't played in months and took breaks when I did, because I wanted to support them, the class quests are undeniably amazing, but now I think I'll cancel it since it's inevitably supporting EA, not BW.

  3. #83
    This next patch will really tell if the developers have learned from their initial launch (which was better the most MMO's anyways). So far the new Operation has been really good but 1.4 as a whole will really tell if SWTOR will retain and develop a player base or if it will fizzle down to a Star Wars fanboy community.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by TequilaFlavor View Post
    The problem - for many - is charging monthly for a "singleplayer MMORPG".

    If the initial prize was 60 dollars and the subscription was 15 dollars/month, people payed 240 dollars for the privilege of playing said game with the content of what, maybe 2 Kotors ? That would still be double the amount of cash you would usually need to fork over for 2 brand new AAA single player RPGs.

    Ok, maybe the content exceeds 2 Kotors, but it's still hefty.

    And don't forget the limitations an MMO has over a "true" single player RPG: The world can't really permanently change for everyone because of your decisions, your decisions in general are "smaller", combat is often "dumbed-down"/less strategic, things need to be balanced, so there is less of the "I'm a God and I'll smite you" entics that often happen at the end of RPGs (where you get the super powerful weapons/skills/spells) and that a lot of people enjoy, etc. . .
    I agree with all that. But I also enjoyed TOR as a sequel. I enjoyed it as an MMO also but it's impossible for it to compete with a WoW who's been continously updating itself for years, with tons of side content.

    The problem is that people thought it could be a threat to WoW, once it wasn't, it's like what's the point? The leveling process felt much less grindy than other MMOs to me. I enjoyed the journey. As opposed to other titles where the journey is more meant as a GY for nubs.

    I really do feel that, while the game lacked in certain departments, it was and could be great. People who enjoyed the game got convinced they didn't, people inevitably compare it to X, Y and Z, showcasing the imperfections then beating them endlessly.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Thenoose View Post
    I agree with all that. But I also enjoyed TOR as a sequel. I enjoyed it as an MMO also but it's impossible for it to compete with a WoW who's been continously updating itself for years, with tons of side content.

    The problem is that people thought it could be a threat to WoW, once it wasn't, it's like what's the point? The leveling process felt much less grindy than other MMOs to me. I enjoyed the journey. As opposed to other titles where the journey is more meant as a GY for nubs.

    I really do feel that, while the game lacked in certain departments, it was and could be great. People who enjoyed the game got convinced they didn't, people inevitably compare it to X, Y and Z, showcasing the imperfections then beating them endlessly.
    I very much agree with you on the whole "people enjoying the game got convinced they didn't like it", that's - unfortunately - a case of peer pressure that seems rampant in MMOs.

    However, I don't really think I agree that it's impossible to compete with WoW, just because said game had more time to amass content.

    Let's face it: WoW is old - I really got pleasently surprised how awesome MoP is so far and I'm loving it - but WoW is 8 years old by now.

    That not only shows in the graphical department (,though they must have magicians for graphic designers, because MoP looks insanely gorgeous for an over 10 years old engine), but also in the way ingame mechanics like questing, leveling, gear progression, combat, crafting etc. are handled.

    If you break the mold with some fresh ideas, have kind of up-to-date graphics and still have a lot of the QoL additions WoW currently has, your MMO should do just fine - even without 8 years worth of content.

    Again: Not trying to bash Sw:Tor here, it's great that people like you enjoy it and I'm sure they do it for a reason - just saying that, imho, the "can't compete with 8 year old MMO" argument doesn't quite work for me.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    It was a waste of money. It clearly didn't help the bottom line, which they thought it would. Having a few special snowflakes over for tea doesn't make your game better.

    It is stupid. Most people who played this game have possibly never even played a Bioware game. I wager that the percentage of people who were SW fans, avid MMO players, or a combination of both was much larger than people who played Bioware games. Additionally, the MMO market was who they were targeting. They didn't target BG players, sorry.

    There's more competition than ever. They picked a bad time to release an unfinished product in order to try and capture the market before the big releases came out. They had a year's head start that could have been massive if released properly. EA pushed too little, too soon.
    Judging it afterwards... it was a waste of money. Judging it at the time it was held... it was a good idea. You can't always judge everything only by it's outcome.. . Everyone was totally hyped for the guild summit, god knows how many people watched the lifestream (and yes I did watch it in the middle of the night not being so fortunate to live on the same continent)...

    How much experience do you have with the MMO market when you never had a product in it?... exactly. They thought their story would bring it on... they clearly played their storyline card, I'm sure everyone knew this judging by the amount of times they repeated it.... "story - the fourth?! pillar)...

    Quote Originally Posted by vizzle View Post
    There was no point to do it. As we've seen, most of their promises from that event never really pushed through, and it's not a big even like Blizzcon since it's limited to just those guilds they invited.

    Nobody here is saying that TOR had bad story, but story only lasts for so long. After you get to max level, you're going to need some decent content. They made the game an MMORPG, so people were expecting an MMORPG.
    By the time of the Guild Summit Bioware was talking about a Biowarecon... they clearly had different plans at that time.

    What mmo elements you didn't find in SWTOR at the beginning? You had raids (broken/ bugged.. sure, but exisiting)... you had pvp, crafting questing... what else?

    Quote Originally Posted by TequilaFlavor View Post
    Again: Not trying to bash Sw:Tor here, it's great that people like you enjoy it and I'm sure they do it for a reason - just saying that, imho, the "can't compete with 8 year old MMO" argument doesn't quite work for me.
    It works perfectly fine. People aren't willing to give up years of their lives for another similar MMO with different graphic styles and genre... . You couldn't launch WoW now, nobody would play it/ people would run berzerk mode over it's failures/ bugs/ non existing content/ lame ass story. How many people WoW gained and how many people had already played WoW at some point and came back for MoP? WoW's graphic still looks like experiencing an LSD trip... I can't understand how anyone not older than 10y can stand it.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Psychlon View Post
    It works perfectly fine. People aren't willing to give up years of their lives for another similar MMO with different graphic styles and genre... . You couldn't launch WoW now, nobody would play it/ people would run berzerk mode over it's failures/ bugs/ non existing content/ lame ass story. How many people WoW gained and how many people had already played WoW at some point and came back for MoP? WoW's graphic still looks like experiencing an LSD trip... I can't understand how anyone not older than 10y can stand it.
    Slow down there, buddy, I was NOT trying to bash SwTor, nor was I commenting that WoW was better or anything, so there is no real reason for getting overly defensive and/or bashing WoW/MoP in the process.

    I myself said in the comment you quoted that WoW is old, (partly) looks old and has an oldfashioned MMO playstyle.

    All I wanted to get at is (as I already stated in the post you quoted): If you break the mold with 2012/13 graphics and a new style of combat/questing etc., I see no reason why you wouldn't be able to compete with an 8 year old game that uses a 12+ years old engine (the core engine is the WC 3 one).

    You are right, though, that some people will be unwilling to jump ship after spending so much time on WoW, but that doesn't neccessarily have to do with 8 years worth of content.
    Last edited by TequilaFlavor; 2012-10-08 at 08:50 AM.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Psychlon View Post
    What mmo elements you didn't find in SWTOR at the beginning? You had raids (broken/ bugged.. sure, but exisiting)... you had pvp, crafting questing... what else?
    Nothing that made it stand out. SWTOR was essentially WoW features with a SW skin. The unique things about the game (companions and morality) are thrown out the window when you get to endgame.
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  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by TequilaFlavor View Post
    Slow down there, buddy, I was NOT trying to bash SwTor, nor was I commenting that WoW was better or anything, so there is no real reason for getting overly defensive and/or bashing WoW/MoP in the process.

    I myself said in the comment you quoted that WoW is old, (partly) looks old and has an oldfashioned MMO playstyle.

    All I wanted to get at is (as I already stated in the post you quoted): If you break the mold with 2012/13 graphics and a new style of combat/questing etc., I see no reason why you wouldn't be able to compete with an 8 year old game that uses a 12+ years old engine (the core engine is the WC 3 one).

    You are right, though, that some people will be unwilling to jump ship after spending so much time on WoW, but that doesn't neccessarily have to do with 8 years worth of content.
    Sorry... I didn't intend to "bash" anything and it wasn't anything against you.

    Quote Originally Posted by vizzle View Post
    Nothing that made it stand out. SWTOR was essentially WoW features with a SW skin. The unique things about the game (companions and morality) are thrown out the window when you get to endgame.
    What I said before... SWTOR was nothing new, just different graphic style with another background.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychlon View Post
    Judging it afterwards... it was a waste of money. Judging it at the time it was held... it was a good idea. You can't always judge everything only by it's outcome.. . Everyone was totally hyped for the guild summit, god knows how many people watched the lifestream (and yes I did watch it in the middle of the night not being so fortunate to live on the same continent)...

    How much experience do you have with the MMO market when you never had a product in it?... exactly. They thought their story would bring it on... they clearly played their storyline card, I'm sure everyone knew this judging by the amount of times they repeated it.... "story - the fourth?! pillar)...
    I thought it was cool at first too. The state the game was in before they had was atrocious, but as we all know it was mostly from listening to early complaints of people wanting the game to not include any WoW features. I was a little skeptical about having more of those people lobbying for even worse ideas. In fact, this game listened to the fans far too much and it ruined it.

    I will admit that being able to discern when giving your fans what they ask for and when to just make your game is almost impossible. Until just recently, like in the last month, even Blizzard had no idea where this line was.

    As for the story, I think that was just Bioware being Bioware. They were excited to have resources to bring something to life like they had so many times before. It's their thing. I don't even think they were trying to use it as some crazy strategy to capture the MMO market. They were just excited to do what they do best. If they had stopped to think about it, the whole VO story telling would have taken a back seat to the other things that have been (and many still are) missing from the game.

  11. #91
    The more alts I'm playing, the more I'm enjoying the game, imperial, republic, jedi, non-jedi, whatever, in terms of altoholics.. I think this is a great game. However if they could finally introduce some system so I don't have to log all my chars in and out just because I would like to optimize my crafting... that would really be awesome.

    I think for me it's just the mix of Starwars and the Graphic I like.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    And in case you didn't notice, your 'alleged' company was just voted the worst company in America. So clearly it's not sunshine and puppy dog moonbeams as you claim it to be. If you would like to give us some direct evidence that you 'worked in management' at EA, then please do so.
    The 'worst company in America' award was a load of horse manure, and anyone with common sense knows it. It was about as credible as metacritic or amazon bombing is, by upset fanboys over ME3's ending. I doubt anyone who voted for this feux award actually has any understanding of the machinations at play, or the running of EA. And no, for that matter, I don't either, but know of a dozen companies that actually deserved that award, over a company that makes products for our entertainment.
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  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Kudos View Post
    The 'worst company in America' award was a load of horse manure, and anyone with common sense knows it. It was about as credible as metacritic or amazon bombing is, by upset fanboys over ME3's ending. I doubt anyone who voted for this feux award actually has any understanding of the machinations at play, or the running of EA. And no, for that matter, I don't either, but know of a dozen companies that actually deserved that award, over a company that makes products for our entertainment.
    I would have voted for Bank of America, personally. I don't think EA is a terrible company, I just think they're a generic video game company that doesn't come up with any original ideas and instead relies on IPs created by others and bought up by them. The year before the award was won by BP which came on the heels of the oil spill. It's a very reactionary award. That should be evident by the fact that Wal-Mart and Bank of America have never won.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by notorious98 View Post
    I would have voted for Bank of America, personally. I don't think EA is a terrible company, I just think they're a generic video game company that doesn't come up with any original ideas and instead relies on IPs created by others and bought up by them. The year before the award was won by BP which came on the heels of the oil spill. It's a very reactionary award. That should be evident by the fact that Wal-Mart and Bank of America have never won.
    The one thing I really hate about EA is that they buy out a developer, then ruin this developer's main franchise with stupid dumbing down / "broader appeal" nonsense, then shut down or at least heavily gut said developer, blaming only them and subsequently bury the franchise.

    They did this nonsense with Bullfrog and Westwood (which is just unexcusable for me) + Origins (the Ultima developer) and now it seems to be Bioware's turn.

    I LOVE Command & Conquer, I LOVED Dungeon Keeper 1 + 2, I LOVED Neverwinter Night 1 + 2, Kotor 1 + 2 and now chances of ever getting games like that again seem very, very slim - all thanks to EA.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kudos View Post
    The 'worst company in America' award was a load of horse manure, and anyone with common sense knows it. It was about as credible as metacritic or amazon bombing is, by upset fanboys over ME3's ending. I doubt anyone who voted for this feux award actually has any understanding of the machinations at play, or the running of EA. And no, for that matter, I don't either, but know of a dozen companies that actually deserved that award, over a company that makes products for our entertainment.
    Considering that Banks are limited by the government in how much they can screw you, and reversed their decisions to blatantly rob you after consumer outcry, as shitty as they are they tend so slide on by. EA on the other hand, hears it's customer complaints and then plows through to make their money. I'm sorry that you feel the need to dismiss thousands of people's valid opinions as bullshit. I'll let an actual journalist inform you as to why you are wrong:

    “it’s not just over the Mass Effect 3 ending,” writes Usher, “it’s over Origin, it’s over Project $10, it’s over early server closings, it’s about DLC charity abuse, it’s over them gutting studios like Pandemic, Westwood, Origin Studios and Bright Light, it’s over the lawsuits, it’s over the nickel-and-diming with Day-1 DLC, and everything else in between. If you didn’t know any of that then you’re not informed enough to say why people shouldn’t have voted for EA.”

    Here's a link to the actual article which goes into great detail rebutting Pachter's comments defending EA:
    http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Pac...ect-41239.html

    Please be more of an apologist. He even briefly comments on BofA, because we all know they are terrible.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by vizzle View Post
    Nothing that made it stand out. SWTOR was essentially WoW features with a SW skin. The unique things about the game (companions and morality) are thrown out the window when you get to endgame.
    If they had just made the "end game" different from wow.

    Maybe made smaller team operations where your companion played a role?
    Maybe made 3d space flight pvp / pve half the "end game" scene?
    Maybe made crafting the way to get the BIS gear but had the mats be rare drops from hard 4ms instead of raids?

    Really anything but trying to out-wow WoW. Because even if you do out-wow WoW in pve, then you have to out-rift Rift. And that's not going to happen.

    Also, hotkey mmos.

    Starting to feel real 2004-ish.

    I know they've been in development for 5 years but at some point someone should have said "hey. Do you think people will be bored of hotkey mmos after a decade?"
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  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by gx240 View Post
    About the same number as are left at all the other companies EA bought and destroyed.

    I still don't understand why anyone thought that Bioware would be any different from all the other companies they wrecked.
    I think a better question is; Why do companies keep letting EA buy them out? Do they somehow think they'll be an exception to the rule that EA will destroy anything it touches?
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  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by xsublymonalx View Post
    I think a better question is; Why do companies keep letting EA buy them out? Do they somehow think they'll be an exception to the rule that EA will destroy anything it touches?
    The people who own the company know they will get a massive severance package to ride their golden parachute to early retirement knowing that any blame will land securely on EA's uncaring shoulders.
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  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by xsublymonalx View Post
    I think a better question is; Why do companies keep letting EA buy them out? Do they somehow think they'll be an exception to the rule that EA will destroy anything it touches?
    Once again. EA didn't buy out Bioware. They bought Bioware and Pandemic from Elevation Partners, an investment firm that basically bought Bioware and Pandemic 2 years beforehand, merging them together. Then EA bought out VG Holdings Corp., the holding company that owned Bioware/Pandemic, but was set up by Elevation Partners. So Bioware didn't allow EA to buy them. They had no choice once they allowed Elevation Partners to buy them.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    If they had just made the "end game" different from wow.

    Maybe made smaller team operations where your companion played a role?
    Maybe made 3d space flight pvp / pve half the "end game" scene?
    Maybe made crafting the way to get the BIS gear but had the mats be rare drops from hard 4ms instead of raids?

    Really anything but trying to out-wow WoW. Because even if you do out-wow WoW in pve, then you have to out-rift Rift. And that's not going to happen.

    Also, hotkey mmos.

    Starting to feel real 2004-ish.

    I know they've been in development for 5 years but at some point someone should have said "hey. Do you think people will be bored of hotkey mmos after a decade?"
    THey made smaller operations/ flashpoint groups. I can raid in SWTOR with 1/3 of the people I could in EQ2 which is not only much easier but also more enjoyable because people actually do matter as does their "skill". I like running flashpoints with 4 people instead of 6 like in EQ2. I like having scripts in flashpoints (which EQ2 doesn't have for the most part because it's considered to be "too difficult for random folks"). Even a railshot space is better than no space at all.

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