Thread: 2H vs DW frost

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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Spazzeh View Post
    Because you don't have to get two?
    That, and the fact that there drop 5 or more 2h str weapons from hcs and 1 or 2 1h's. I have seen 0 1handers so far and about 10 2h's. (To be fair, I did farm Scholomance for the trinket and there drop 2 2h's in there)

  2. #42
    High Overlord Lamperouqe's Avatar
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    It ultimately comes down to whichever spec you have the better weapon(s) for. In the case you have equal weapons; DW is the way to go with Gara'jal being the only boss which is purely single target and doesn't require moving out of melee range for the entirety of the fight (unless you have to go to the spirit realm) in current content.

    I simulated DW vs. 2H with equal ilvl weapons for Gara'jal HC (time 350, vary length 0%, 50k iterations) in my current gear (I have the Gleaming Ravager as my 2H and I used EJ stat values to reforge both specs) and guess what? DW came out on top with 79726 dps, while 2H did 77733 dps. I can only conclude that in current gear levels DW is superior because it's not as gear and weapon dmg dependant as 2H is and the 2p t14 affects a higher portion of 2H's dps than DW's. Also remember that this simulation was only for a single patchwerk style fight, the other fights will see DW on top because of cleave or high movement anyway.

    We will see 2H overtake DW on single target later in the tier, but universally, it won't beat DW this tier or give people enough incentive to make the switch unless it's for a stationary single target fight, which is why I would prioritise obtaining 1H weapons over 2H.

  3. #43
    I gave DW a shot with a focus on Mastery for our Heroic Dogs attempts, and I was happy with the results. Any movement at all, and you're still good with HB spam if need be.

    Feng has a whole phase of adds you can blast. Garajal not as much, unless you get good positioning on the shadow guys' spawns. Spirit Kings you can get some AE, but if anything again, when you're on the move to an arrow'd friend, you can provide relevant DPS still. Elegon, the mastery is relevant. DPS the protectors sooner while they get in range with HBs, good mastery gets you great spark damage when you pestilence on their spawn each wave. Then you get some good AE dmg when you restack after phase 3 both times. Spirit kings? ... I mean, adds everywhere.

    All of this, and DW still holds it's own on single target as well. I don't see much reason not to switch over unless you really can't be bothered to go farm up two weapons from heroics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lamperouqe View Post
    We will see 2H overtake DW on single target later in the tier, but universally, it won't beat DW this tier or give people enough incentive to make the switch unless it's for a stationary single target fight, which is why I would prioritise obtaining 1H weapons over 2H.
    Unless they changed weapon math lately, I am pretty sure DW classes end up scaling better due to getting more out of AP than 2h specs.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    Unless they changed weapon math lately, I am pretty sure DW classes end up scaling better due to getting more out of AP than 2h specs.
    Eventually, yes, but that scaling probably won't come into play with the gear available throughout this expansion pack. Remember that 2H also gets 10% flat melee damage in MotFW to compensate for the superior AP scaling in DW.

    Barring any further changes, I would reasonably expect DW and 2H to be neck and neck on stationary single-targets in coming raid tiers. But of course DW offers many other advantages, as it can do a lot of its damage at range, has free cleave, great AE, etc. You also get 2 runeforges, and Cinderglacier is amazing for AE/cleave.

    This is unfortunate, because it means that 2H will not be competitive at some point. The problem is really masterfrost. The best solution is to kill masterfrost and give 2H frost a reason to value mastery.

    1) Nerf HB's single-target damage by 20% and buff its AE component to do 100% damage so AE remains unchanged.

    2) Change frost mastery to "...your frost damage and Obliterate". This will buff DW hastefrost a bit (and it needs it, as it's significantly behind DW masterfrost) and make 2H frost value mastery, so it won't be so far behind on AE.

    3) Nerf the 2H frost MotFW Obliterate component to compensate for it being affected by mastery.
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2012-10-12 at 05:04 PM.

  5. #45
    Brewmaster Playintrafic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schleimhaut View Post
    Only reason DW isnt really being played in raids atm is because of the hassle to get your hands on 2x STR one handers with same or higher ilvl than your 2h.
    Not true. DW isnt played anymore because of how much of a pain in the ass it is, and the fact it does less dps for more work.

    DW is master frost (aka HB spam) and 2h is haste frost, aka classic frost priorities.

  6. #46
    I'm pretty sure the cleave off of HB is affected by the damage buff on Elegon, so swapping to the protector is kinda silly. Unless your dps is ahead and you're worried about pushing him to quickly in the first p1.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Playintrafic View Post
    Not true. DW isnt played anymore because of how much of a pain in the ass it is, and the fact it does less dps for more work.
    They are extremely close on single targets, the difference is under 2%. It is more work, but the free cleave is worth it in many encounters.

  8. #48
    Ehh... dw isn't really that much more work. The hardest part is making sure you get rid of those pesky UH runes.

  9. #49
    It's not exactly rocket science, but it's certainly more work than hastefrost, where you basically only hit two buttons rotationally; obliterate and frost strike, and it doesn't matter which one you prioritize over the other. Hastefrost doesn't care about runes at all, it just hits buttons when they light up.

  10. #50
    High Overlord Lamperouqe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    Unless they changed weapon math lately, I am pretty sure DW classes end up scaling better due to getting more out of AP than 2h specs.
    2p t14 affects a higher portion of 2H dps and HB is not affected by weapon damage, so 2H is getting more out of weapons and the tier bonus. I assume that is the reason why 2H is simming higher in BiS gear, but is losing to DW in my current gear. BiS gear haste levels should also bring down the currently high downtime of 2H frost.

  11. #51
    This helped me decide which way to, 2H vs DW, lastnight after I got this from a 5-man heroic. Yes, this post offers nothing except me gloating! o.o

    http://www.wowhead.com/item=87542
    Last edited by Canen; 2012-10-12 at 06:25 PM.

  12. #52
    Well I've always been dual wield frost cause I just prefer the dwarf dw animation miles over the 2h animation, which I already see in blood spec. Prioritizing FS over OB is a big pain in the ass at first but I got Tellmewhen set up like a boss now and gotten used to it, and I'm pretty happy with the damage in questing and dungeons, have been first mostly so far in 5mans wether on bosses or the lol-aoe. So the dps isn't that bad by any stretch of the imagination, someone here said 2%, that's minor enough for me to beat most 2h frost I come across in all modesty . I also think that if there needs to be more balancing blizz will step in. Even if there's less single target damage as dw, being able to burn down plate classes in pvp faster or having better aoe cause we stack mastery is a pretty nice plus.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan017 View Post
    This isn't true at all. The reason it isn't being played is because you can't get to adequate mastery and haste levels for (1. Howling Blast x2 to hit harder than Obliterate) and (2. Enough haste levels to not have a substantial amount of empty globals.)

    I have two 1Hs and a 2H and you know why I don't play DW? Because it's damage is inferior.
    THIS.

    I played frost DW in Cata, and switched to frost 2h in MoP - because without the set bonus, not having enough mastery to reforge into (because a lot of melee classes are struggling with being exp + hit capped), and the added pressure of being rune-locked - 2H just makes more sense.

    I don't know where some people are getting their information from - because I'm 5/6 25M right now, ranked 19th on WoL on Spirit Kings - but without being in a mechanic heavy fight while testing BOTH specs, your theory crafting means almost nothing. Just a bunch of numbers.
    Qts of Real Talk, on Kil'jaeden

  14. #54
    High Overlord Lamperouqe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cryolysis View Post
    THIS.

    I played frost DW in Cata, and switched to frost 2h in MoP - because without the set bonus, not having enough mastery to reforge into (because a lot of melee classes are struggling with being exp + hit capped), and the added pressure of being rune-locked - 2H just makes more sense.

    I don't know where some people are getting their information from - because I'm 5/6 25M right now, ranked 19th on WoL on Spirit Kings - but without being in a mechanic heavy fight while testing BOTH specs, your theory crafting means almost nothing. Just a bunch of numbers.
    Sorry to burst your bubble, but I am 2/6 25M HC, ranked 1st on Elegon 25N with 144938 dps, 1st on Feng 25H with 92290 dps and 2nd on 25N Will with 83557 dps even though I died in the end of the fight, and I play dual wield. There, a "bunch of numbers" for you.

    Edit: Forgot sarcasm doesn't come across without the tags when typing.
    Last edited by Lamperouqe; 2012-10-12 at 08:58 PM.

  15. #55
    As long as we're talking about stuff that totally doesn't matter, I'm the crown prince of Spain, had lunch with Bono today, can run a 4 minute mile, and have an eleven inch schlong.

    Your individual performance simply does not matter. Small sample sizes are not meaningful.

  16. #56
    High Overlord Lamperouqe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    As long as we're talking about stuff that totally doesn't matter, I'm the crown prince of Spain, had lunch with Bono today, can run a 4 minute mile, and have an eleven inch schlong.
    I see what you did there, but I just had to because of how ignorant he was with his "achievements" and "practical experience with both specs". I'm going way off topic too, might as well stop posting knowing the mmo-c community.

  17. #57
    Epeen much?

    My point was that both specs are viable- however for many players, they choose to play 2H because the way haste helps us.

    I wasn't throwing my WoL parse out there to discredit you, I was putting it out there to back up my own credibility.

    Good job jumping to conclusions.
    Qts of Real Talk, on Kil'jaeden

  18. #58
    Surely you understand that "theorycrafting is just numbers listen to me I'm in a top ranked 25H guild" comes off like epeening.

    Anyway, both subspecs are indeed viable, pick based upon weapons available to you. In the end it looks like DW will win, and hopefully the devs address that.

  19. #59
    Just based on fight mechanics.. DW is better on Stone Tards, Feng, Spirit Kings, Elegon and Will. And no, I'm not talking about normals.

  20. #60
    I'm thinking of switching to DW to try it out, I've been 2H since MoP hit. I suspect that with optimal play, I'll do more dps on most of the MSV bosses, but I'm worried that it's going to take me a while to get used to switching my playstyle/priority. Hastefrost is just so easy for very competitive damage. :/

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